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 Post subject: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 atm)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:52 am 
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cause come on, i needed one rap list to edit before i killed somebody. nothing official about this, its not going on the main site. i didn't ask anybody if i could make it, blah blah blah. but i'm making it and that's it. so...

criteria:
Musical Impact: which includes influence, innovation, respect within the rap community, and overall importance the album had musically on rap lyrics, both in terms of content and form. this is like 66% of the criteria, because this is a list that is very specific to musical importance more than cultural or commercial importance.
Cultural Impact: self-explanatory i suppose. how much did the lyrics on this album create a buzz beyond the music community, and invade the social, political, etc worlds. this also includes the "popularity" portion of the criteria, factoring in how much an album impacted the world outside of the music industry. this is like 33% of the criteria.

basically i took the normal 4-category criteria and combined them into 2. you get the idea. and i weighted them. it is what it is.


1. Follow the Leader (1988, Eric B. & Rakim)
2. Illmatic (1994, Nas)
3. Paid in Full (1987, Eric B. & Rakim)
4. Long Live the Kane (1988, Big Daddy Kane)
5. It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (1988, Public Enemy)
6. Wanted: Dead or Alive (1990, Kool G Rap & DJ Polo)
7. Life After Death (1997, Notorious B.I.G.)
8. Criminal Minded (1987, KRS-One)
9. Reasonable Doubt (1996, Jay-Z)
10. The Great Adventures of Slick Rick (1988, Slick Rick)
11. The Marshall Mathers LP (2000, Eminem)
12. Me Against the World (1995, Tupac)
13.Aquemini (1998, OutKast)

working it out. involve yourself if you'd like. i would love all the input i can get.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:09 am 
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Is it strange that I had similar idea for the list for quite a long time? But I was expecting Illmatic to go at #1.
It's not part of criteria but academic response this album is recieving is staggering. Plus it is contender for #1 album among hardcore hip-hop fans. Intiutively it feels that Rakim should have more albums in the top part of the list, but Nas should take number one here. Also nice counterpart to this list would be greatest "production" albums list if you know what I mean. And I will think for another albums for your list later.


Last edited by Tiny Tim on Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:16 am 
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i feel like production albums might need to include a wider range of hip hop that we usually don't include on the rap lists. like DJ Shadow and Peanut Butter Wolf and stuff.

but of the usual rap canon that we talk about, i'd expect high placements for The Chronic, 36 Chambers, The Blueprint, Paid in Full, Radio, Licensed to Ill, Raising Hell, and It Takes a Nation to Hold Us Back.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:17 am 
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and yeah, this list was made in kind of a hurry the other night for the lyrical albums list in the lyrics subforum... i need to tweak it. a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:09 am 
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Why would you have Life After Death over Ready to Die?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:55 am 
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I think your top 3 is very solid.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:17 pm 
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pave wrote:
5. It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (1988, Public Enemy)


:lol: I love this album but come on now.


Last edited by JRA on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Oh YES, it's about time you did this pave.
I'm wondering though, if cultural impact should be applicable here? Lyrics are like...a 'component' of the overall whole of rap music. So it seems that connecting something as drastic as cultural impact with such a comparably smaller component of the music is kind of redundant. In most cases, it's the overall music and STYLE of rap artists that impacted culture, not solely the lyrics by themselves.
But with that said...

pave wrote:
cause come on, i needed one rap list to edit before i killed somebody. nothing official about this, its not going on the main site. i didn't ask anybody if i could make it, blah blah blah. but i'm making it and that's it. so...

criteria:
Musical Impact: which includes influence, innovation, respect within the rap community, and overall importance the album had musically on rap lyrics, both in terms of content and form. this is like 66% of the criteria, because this is a list that is very specific to musical importance more than cultural or commercial importance.
Cultural Impact: self-explanatory i suppose. how much did the lyrics on this album create a buzz beyond the music community, and invade the social, political, etc worlds. this also includes the "popularity" portion of the criteria, factoring in how much an album impacted the world outside of the music industry. this is like 33% of the criteria.

basically i took the normal 4-category criteria and combined them into 2. you get the idea. and i weighted them. it is what it is.


1. Follow the Leader (1988, Eric B. & Rakim)
2. Illmatic (1994, Nas)
3. Paid in Full (1987, Eric B. & Rakim)
4. Long Live the Kane (1988, Big Daddy Kane)
5. It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (1988, Public Enemy)
6. Wanted: Dead or Alive (1990, Kool G Rap & DJ Polo)
7. Life After Death (1997, Notorious B.I.G.)
8. Criminal Minded (1987, KRS-One)
9. Reasonable Doubt (1996, Jay-Z)
10. The Great Adventures of Slick Rick (1988, Slick Rick)
11. The Marshall Mathers LP (2000, Eminem)
12. Me Against the World (1995, Tupac)
13.Aquemini (1998, OutKast)

working it out. involve yourself if you'd like. i would love all the input i can get.


This is good, but I'm confused as to why you would put WDoA as the highest for G. Rap & Polo. "Road To The Riches" is obviously their masterpiece, and the one that officially put G. Rap on the scene as the nastiest new MC in the game.

My only other contention is that "It's A Big Daddy Thing" should be the highest for Kane. Although LLtK was his debut, there was still a lot of filler on that album and IMO he hadn't truly peaked yet. Then on IaBDT, he becomes the Kane that we all know and love....untouchable flow, slashing wit, furious speed, and just about anything else you can think of. Check the live version of "Wrath Of Kane" for all of these qualities brilliantly packed into one tune.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:55 pm 
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JRA wrote:
pave wrote:
5. It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (1988, Public Enemy)


:lol: I love this album but come on now.


why do you think its not worthy?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Oh YES, it's about time you did this pave.
I'm wondering though, if cultural impact should be applicable here? Lyrics are like...a 'component' of the overall whole of rap music. So it seems that connecting something as drastic as cultural impact with such a comparably smaller component of the music is kind of redundant. In most cases, it's the overall music and STYLE of rap artists that impacted culture, not solely the lyrics by themselves.
But with that said...


i'll get back to you on the Kane and G Rap albums later on, but i'll go ahead and address this real quick. the "cultural impact" part of the criteria here has a different meaning than it does on the Rock Artists list. when i say "cultural impact", all i mean is what impact the lyrics had on any level outside of the music world itself. so for example, the controversy surrounding N.W.A., Public Enemy or Eminem's lyrics, or the way certain lyrics have become cultural touchstones, etc. i think if we don't consider those things, we miss out on the very power of lyrics. not to mention, cultural impact here also takes into account the acclaim and buzz of an album's lyrics by the general population. someone like 2Pac, for example, who has become something of a poet-icon among young fans, should be given some credit for that imo.

one thing i want to get away from is the idea that rap lyrics are only aesthetically valuable. e.i. analyzing them in terms of rhyme schemes and complexity and all that. content and subject matter and storytelling and all that have to be treated as just as important. which is why someone like Chuck D or 2Pac are given more credit here than on this site's "greatest lyrical performances" list. now with that said, the thing that separates rap's lyrics as something unique among all forms of written-word is the amazing use of internal rhyme, multi-syllable rhymes, alliteration, etc. so i'm not going to completely minimize the technical component because its the very thing that makes rap so great and gives rap lyrics their musicality. which is why Kool G Rap, Nas, Rakim, Kane, etc will get their due credit on this list. i just don't want this list to be only about that.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
This is good, but I'm confused as to why you would put WDoA as the highest for G. Rap & Polo. "Road To The Riches" is obviously their masterpiece, and the one that officially put G. Rap on the scene as the nastiest new MC in the game.


i don't see how its their masterpiece and i definitely don't see it as "obvious" either way. in fact, its probably the least acclaimed of their three albums overall. WDoA has a wider range of themes, more vivid imagery and storytelling, and was a huge influence especially on Nas (who has named it one of his favorite albums and was a major influence on Illmatic).

either way though, all three will end up on the list. on a sidenote, he is becoming my favorite lyricist of that era, even possibly above Rakim for me (not that he is "greater", i just am beginning to like him more).


Negative Creep wrote:
My only other contention is that "It's A Big Daddy Thing" should be the highest for Kane. Although LLtK was his debut, there was still a lot of filler on that album and IMO he hadn't truly peaked yet. Then on IaBDT, he becomes the Kane that we all know and love....untouchable flow, slashing wit, furious speed, and just about anything else you can think of. Check the live version of "Wrath Of Kane" for all of these qualities brilliantly packed into one tune.


again i think both of these will be top 20 overall. and maybe Its a Big Daddy Thing is his best overall album, but its LLtK that set the world of rap on fire when it came out. "Set It Off" and "Ain't No Half-Steppin'" are still two of his most influential and widely praised lyrical performances, with only "Wrath of Kane" and "Raw" (which were both on singles released in promotion of the LLtK) matching them. it's those four songs that built his reputation, and yeah a live version of Wrath made it on to It's a Big Daddy Thing, but by that point it was already well-established among his fans.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:39 pm 
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just my opinion of course. thanks for the input. i'm excited to make this list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Georgi wrote:
Why would you have Life After Death over Ready to Die?


on the strength of I Got a Story to Tell, Ten Crack Commandments, and Kick in the Door. honestly, they probably belong pretty close on the final list. a case could be made for either one being higher.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:23 pm 
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pave wrote:
one thing i want to get away from is the idea that rap lyrics are only aesthetically valuable. e.i. analyzing them in terms of rhyme schemes and complexity and all that. content and subject matter and storytelling and all that have to be treated as just as important. which is why someone like Chuck D or 2Pac are given more credit here than on this site's "greatest lyrical performances" list. now with that said, the thing that separates rap's lyrics as something unique among all forms of written-word is the amazing use of internal rhyme, multi-syllable rhymes, alliteration, etc. so i'm not going to completely minimize the technical component because its the very thing that makes rap so great and gives rap lyrics their musicality. which is why Kool G Rap, Nas, Rakim, Kane, etc will get their due credit on this list. i just don't want this list to be only about that.


That sounds really good. Should be a really good list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rap Lyrical Albums (well, technically 13 at
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:55 am 
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looking back through this, i think the biggest mistake was having Aquemini rather than ATLiens. i'll be fixing that.


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