you also think scarface should be in the top 10 rap artists soooo

But that is the point; it isn't a difference of artistic individuality, its still the wu tang clan. How is it misguided? Almost everyone agrees, and ive provided a pretty clear understanding on why it should be so, as opposed to other groups. Grouping Boogie down productions into this doesnt make sense because that is a clear departure from the group, and a solo record. You are completely missing the point; im not sayin that anyone who was in a group is only counted for as their group and not their individual efforts, that would be silly. stop being irrational and describing scenarios that i haven't put forward, nor would i agree to. You're making a discourse that is not there, while not commenting on the one that is already in place.

The Wu-Tang Clan is unique in that they always had individual releases without it being considered outside the group setting, but they're not being released AS Wu-Tang albums, and that a huge distinction, regardless of the cirumstances that led to it.

I understand the argument for including it all, which will undoubtably raise them up, which is what most people here personally want to see, and it's definitely a valid argument - they never left the group and are often working within the group on the release, but with the credited artist as the visionary creative force of that project. But it's equally valid to treat those releases as solo material, as they themselves do, in regards to album credit.

It's still a judgement call, and a tough one that can go either way and still be defensible (those are rare too), but as long as Todd's consistent, and he's made it clear that he is across the board for all artists, then you have to work within that framework when discussing the list and accept that work as a different entity.

I don't see it as a judgement call because they were legally not allowed to name their albums wu tang albums, but they still wanted the release as many albums as a group as they could. And i shouldn't have to accept it, if i was given the right to make/edit the list...

If everyone disagrees with the status-quo, its gotta change.
Screw that authoritarian thing Sampson's talking about...

Like it or not, these lists are not a democratic voting booth. Arguments are made to an editor for his/her consideration only, but those editors don't have to even read or consider them if they choose not to. Sorry, that's the real world for ya. Editors have the sole responsibility of maintaining the list, it can't work any other way. That doesn't mean all lists are even good, there are tons of lists on this site that suck and can have their credibility easily shot down, but it still has to be done using whatever criteria the list uses and unless you want the forum to look like it is dominated by a bunch of immature kids you still have to do it respectfully to editor who puts the work in on it. I know, that takes all the fun out of it, doesn't it?

Does it seem fair to Chemical Ali that he was given a list only to have it taken away from him again? No, but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that the same thing that HE did in effect to Todd? Taking HIS list away from him? Todd didn't voluntarily hand it over only to take it back later, I'm guessing that Chemical Ali pushed to take over what appeared to be a dormant list and was wrongly given that chance, but when Todd returned and protested he rightfully got it back, as it was his creation all along.

Furthermore, it was Todd who built the rap section from the ground up when 99% of the people on the site wanted all hip-hop banished to another website entirely. He, Chris F. and I were the only three editors who demanded its inclusion and it faced massive opposition along the way. But now look at it, The Wu-Tang Clan are probably one of the most talked about and praised groups overall on the entire site! You gotta look at the benefits that came from it as well as looking at whatever smaller issues bother you.

Personally with Wu-Tang I'd probably be slightly more inclined to side with you guys now, using the reasoning that a solo career generally comes after a complete split with a group - a la N.W.A. and Cube, Dre, et. all. When the individuals stay within the group but release side projects, which are more about legalities than seperate visions by each member, there's probably enough justification to include them all under the same banner, but even if he doesn't decide to change that, he's at least being consistent and you need to respect that much at least. And if you DO want to keep trying to pursuade him, it's probably not going to be very effective to call him or anyone else names, it just makes it easier to dismiss you altogether.

It would probably because Todd didn't post for 12 months so Lew hands it over to Chem and then Todd comes back so he gets the list back. What a load o' shit. The list hasn't changed in years and that's bullshit. We're sick of arguing for artists being too high and too low and seeing the same ole rubbish. So give it to someone who will edit the list (anyone else).

It's cool guys, we've got like...50 years on them. Just wait for them to die then we'll have the lists to ourselves.

Sorry, that's not how the site is run. The forum is for the DISCUSSION of the lists, or more specifically topics covered by the list, asking questions to the editor who can choose to read and answer them if he wants, but isn't required to, and can, if he agrees with an argument, make a change.

But these lists aren't for your acceptance or approval. They're lists based on criteria chosen by the editor who then uses that criteria to rank the artists in question. Some are done well while some others are a disgrace. Whatever your or my opinion of their quality however, they're still the sole responsibility of the editor and that editor should not have had his work given away without his agreement in the first place. Like I said, I feel bad for Chem, he didn't do anything wrong (other than perhaps push to take over someone else's list), but get past it.

As far as the list not changing over time, truthfully, if the editor does their job right and feels the rankings are justified by the criteria, then they SHOULDN'T change, since the facts behind those rankings haven't changed, other than when new artists, albums and influence would warrant that. Too many people want to see change for change's sake and want to be able to alter them to suit their own tastes.

This is not a playground argument where he who yells the loudest wins. Todd is an adult, I assume you guys are as well, so if there is a legitimate case to be made for change you make it. Apparently you've done that and he doesn't agree and has given reasons for not agreeing, but he's the editor so you have to accept that - move on if you the list sickens you that much and focus on the other 4,237 lists on the site. I don't think his feelings will be hurt.

If the list is so bad then he'll be the one to take the critical heat from those who know hip-hop's history. But if you let yourselves get frustrated and call him names and demand someone else takes over it only makes you look worse yourselves. I don't think that's what you want, at least I hope not.

Maybe you'd like an age requirement for signing up? Like for voting, buying booze and renting a car? I can see it now - ADULTS ONLY!

Uh i didn't push to take over anyones list, i was decided to be one of the most knowledgeable posters when it came to Rap/hip-hop on this site. Given the lists, i edited a few, perhaps not as many as i could, but my lists went on the main site; and almost everyone has said that my list is superior to the older list, especially better than this new list. So when he comes back, why is it that he should be reinstated with the list? My list has been voted by most posters to be the better list, ive put in the time, and he has not. He does not engage in civil discourse on the subjects, so why should he be the editor of a list where most people question his logic and/or knowledge on the subject?

"Better" is still subjective. You've probably built up a relationship with the regulars on the forum by being here, and though I haven't seen your list but from the comments you've made I take it you incorporated other people's suggestions into your rankings when you had the lists, so of course your's would be "more popular".

I'm not defending Todd's list or criticizing yours, I'm simply saying it IS fair that he has the list now since it was his to begin with. It never should've been handed away in the first place. It's not your fault, but that's the way it goes. Think of it this way: If you had originally come up with the list before Todd ever arrived on the site, but then you had to leave for an extended period and when you came back and saw he had taken it over you'd be just as pissed as you are now. The only difference would be you'd have a better reason for being mad, BUT you'd have gotten "your" lists back, just as he did.

What I would suggest you do is find a way to create new lists focusing on something not already done by Todd, or anyone else. Be creative. Focus on a small portion of hip-hop, or each decade of rap. There's only eight lists on the site that even focus on rap, so make five more that do, but just in a different way. Don't try and compete with his lists, even if you feel that you could do a better job. Do something that expands the scope of what is viewed and discussed here and that'll be more constructive than complaining about a decision that's out of your hands. Don't turn this into an East Coast-West Coast war like happened in 90's hip-hop, you saw how that ended and we don't want to have to post R.I.P. for you both.

Just a suggestion.

Your comments are always backhanded and condescending. To even put it out there, without saying that thats how you feel, that my list was merely only popular because it incorporated other peoples opinions, is in one way disclaiming my knowledge on the subject. Why should he have the list? Honestly. He does not expand on it, he does not follow the criteria, and its a pretty poor version of a list. I don't understand the need for having him as the editor just because he was there first; let alone the part of not participating in open discussion of the list. If i had the list first, then left, and came back to find it was in the hands of someone else and they had expanded the list, and had legitimate reasons for the inclusion of certain artists in their spots, then i dont see how i could be mad about it. They did the work that i did not do myself. Those suggestions are missing the point of the topic

I never saw your list, I wasn't commenting on it at all. By what you've written here it seems as though you think the input of posters should affect a list, in this case Todd's, since you're pretty upset that he's not agreeing to change it based on your input and that of others. So naturally I assume that when you had the list you let others make suggestions which you then may have followed. If you did then naturally it'd be more popular because they'd get a voice in shaping it. Hell, it might be a better list regardless, I don't know, but you can't use the acceptance of visitors here as a reason for deserving it, the lists aren't made for their satisfaction or approval in the first place.

I also wasn't saying Todd deserved the list because his is so great. I've already said I disagree with Scarface's position, and unlike him I probably WOULD include all Wu-Tang releases under their name. I'm also sure if I looked more I would probably find other things I disagree with, maybe big, maybe small. That's not the issue though.

I understand you worked hard on your version of the list, you were proud of it, others liked it, no one's disputing that, but how exactly is it fair to Todd who ALSO worked hard on his to have the editorship simply taken from him? He was the editor and creator of the original list and he never voluntarily gave that up. You can buy a house and never move into it or keep it up, but that doesn't give someone else the right to move in themselves.

Also the editor's job is not to do any of the things you said - expand the list or participate in discussions on that list. It might be nice when they do, but the editor's role on the site, and I've been editing here longer than anyone but Rick, is simply to create list topics, come up with the criteria and rank the eligible artists/songs/albums in accordance with that. Participating on the forum is an entirely seperate thing. It is the moderator's job to interact. The fact that mods are often editors makes it easier, but is not a requirement and never has been. Furthermore 98% of the visitors on the site never step foot on the forum to discuss the lists (this is fact, not a guess), so the debate on the lists only encompasses a very, very small portion of those who see them and their approval or disapproval of the lists is irrelevant.

The point is, Todd IS here, he IS interacting now, he IS explaining the rankings by the criteria. If you think he's doing a bad job then keep making your points using that criteria and if you are right on those points I'll support you on those arguments. If you are consistently making better arguments than he is you'll keep the respect you believe you've earned on the subject and will probably gain new respect in the process, maybe even from Todd and maybe those arguments will get him to change his mind. If you do it tactfully then if Todd ever decides to step away he might even voluntarily hand the list over to you for good, with his blessing and his assurance he will not ask to take it back.

But if you complain that you feel the list was wrongly taken away from you, or if you continually question Todd's competency, or argue with me over an editor's autonomy, then you won't be accomplishing the very thing you want, which is a better list.

Oh look! A list, let's discuss.

1.Run-Dmc
2.Public Enemy
3.Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five
4.Beastie Boys
5.2pac
6.Eric B and Rakim
7.N.W.A
8.Wu-Tang Clan
9.Jay Z
10.De La Soul
11.Outkast
12.A Tribe Called Quest
13.Notorious BIG
14.Nas
15.Eminem
17.LL Cool J
18.Boogie Down Productions
19.Dr.Dre
20.Afrikaa Bambaataa
21.Kanye West
22.The Roots
23.Gangstarr
24.Ice Cube
25.EPMD
26. Salt-N-Pepa
27.Slick Rick
28.Big Daddy Kane
29.Snoop Dog
30.Pete Rock and C.L Smooth
31.Missy Elliott
32.Ultramagnetic MCs
33.Ice T
34.Kool G Rap & DJ Polo
34.Queen Latifah
35.DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince
36.Scarface
37.MC Lyte
38.Kurtis Blow
39.Too $hort
40.Fugees
41.Eightball and MJG
42.Common
43.Treacherous Three
44.Rage Against the Machine
45.Mos Def
46.Whodini
47.DJ Shadow
48.The Funky Four + 1
49.The Sugarhill Gang
50.Massive Attack

51.Schooly D
52.Busta Rhymes
53.Spoonie Gee
54.Doug E.Fresh
55.Mobb Deep
56.Goodie Mob
57.Lil Wayne
58.Cypress Hill
59.Brand Nubian
60.Geto Boys
61.Heavy D and the Boyz
62.Ludacris
63.Bone Thugs and Harmony
64.Redman
65.DJ Qwik
66.Black Star
67.The Cold Crush Brothers
68.Big L
69.Jungle Brothers
70.50 Cent
71.Jurassic 5
72.Black Sheep
73.Fearless Four
74.Digital Underground
75.Stetasonic
76.Naughty by nature
77.Black Moon
78.D.O.C
79.Portishead
80.MF Doom
81.The Pharycde
82.Souls Of Mischeif
83.Main Source
84.T.I
85.KRS-one
86.Jeru the Damaja
87.Mary J. Blige
88.Biz Markie
89.Lauren Hill
90.DMX
91.UGK
92.Talib kweli
93.Kool Keith/Dr Octagon
94.Big Punisher
95.AZ
96.Arrested Development
97.Madlib
98.Camp Lo
99.Leaders of the New School
100.Deltron 3030/Del