I think the criteria Todd selected was more subjective in nature, so even though he might be fairly consistent with his reasonings behind them, it's hard for others to objectively assess "talent", "creativity" and the like so it becomes just a natural difference of opinion.

That being said, the hardest areas for editors to come up with truly objective criteria is always the "skill" positions in music. Instruments and vocalists could be theoretically have objective criteria like success with that skill, influence and musical impact/peer recognition, but trying to figure out what role their skill plays in commercial success would be a nightmare. The other two areas would be easier, but since vocal style is both pretty standard in terms of how it's done, yet each vocalist is so individual in their delivery, there's never THAT much innovation that gets picked up on to spread influence. So you'd be left with peer recognition which essentially is all of those things Todd added up, except it'd be seen through the eyes of their peers rather than the editor. Better maybe, but still flawed and there's really no way around it on a list like this. Not all things are built for objective rankings unfortunately and this is definitely one of them.

i can see all that. still doesn't really explain 2Pac or Ice Cube's positions. i can't think of any reasoning within the criteria to have either of them that low other than just personal opinion.

Hearing "Know How" tells me Young MC should be on this list somewhere.

What about Melle Mel? To say he was a corporate shill who didn't write his own rhymes is bullshit.

Chuck D for top 10?

I'm just curious about something. I kind of think I might know
how to try and explain it if it were me, but I'd like to hear
it from someone on the staff. I know the lists are a couple of
years old, but I wonder why there's a list for Greatest
Rap/Hip-Hop Lyricists and MCs that has Chuck D as number 78
and no mention of either member of Run/DMC. At the same time,
the list of 100 Greatest Rap/Hip-Hop Artists has Run/DMC as
number one and Public Enemy as number two. It's a little like a movie winning an oscar for best picture but the director doesn't even get nominated.

I know the list got a little flack for having Chuck D being 78
in the first place. Having Public Enemy as number 2 on the
other list makes sense because of the impact and innovation
they had on the industry as a whole... yet without Chuck D at
the helm... well... You can see where I might be a little
confused.

I mentioned I might know how I could try to explain it myself.
In the example of Run/DMC, I could say that as a whole, their
pioneering impact on Rap becoming mainstream was very
significant, etc., etc., yet if you dig down deeper to their
individual lyrics and delivery as MC's, there are better choices. There are other MC's that have significantly more thought provoking lyrics and messages that never hit the height of popularity that either of Run/DMC did. I can sort of see that in a way (although it still seems a little inconsistent when you look at 2 of the 4 criteria for the list: innovation and lasting influence... neither of them are even in the top 100 MC's?).

My flimsy attempt at explaining it myself still doesn't
satisfy my curiosity and doesn't come close to explaining why
Chuck D is at 78 on the one list and PE is at 2 on the other
(and I do understand the lists are subjective, but the same person did each one and I'd still like to hear a little deeper of an opinion from someone).

Yoo list is great i just would like too see DMX, Chuck D, Ice Cube, Guru, and Q-Tip bumped up everything else looks fine prolly best emcee list on the internet, but again those names i said should deff be higher there all legends too hip hop lyricists.

Explanation?

He has influenced more emcees. Neither are really original. Both have large popularity.

Melle Mel. Put him on the list.

Jay Z is simply the more revered emcee of the two. listen to the great emcees talk, they will tell you who the elite emcees are. rappers are extremely honest about which of their peers they respect, and which emcees influenced them. its clear the amount of respect the community has for 2Pac, Notorious B.I.G., Nas, Jay-Z, Rakim, KRS-One, Bid Daddy Kane, Slick Rick, and Kool G Rap are the clear top spots. Eminem and Andre are two of the younger generation who are joining them. Common in the next group as well.

Something to think about (warning, douchey interviewer. Kills him a trillion times? lulz)

You should be asking yourself that.

This is laughable to say the very least. Have you ever even listened to Kool G Rap's catalogue? Forget his whole catalogue, his albums '4,5,6' and 'Roots Of Evil' alone are 100 times better than anything Jay-Z ever came up with in his life. I said it in my original post on page 3 - come up with the best Jay-Z compilation you can, highlighting all his best stuff as an emcee, it can be as many songs as you'd like - and I'll throw up 5 G Rap songs that bury it. Some of you are going on about how maybe his lyrics might be lacking but his flow and delivery make up for it. Well I'm talking about the whole package here - not just lyrics - but being a complete emcee. What you write and how you delivery it. The areas which some of you claim to be Jigga's strong points are in fact his flaws. Jay-Z's flow and his delivery have been his biggest flaws for well over a decade now - in so many cases it's downright laughable. Haha, tada, papa. These are the areas that guys like G Rap put him to shame the most. 6 word slow bars and rhyming words that don't even exist are about the lamest things that ever happened to hip-hop and Jay-Z is so guilty of it. And as for the whole influence thing - it's always about how he started the whole mafioso / don thing on Reasonable Doubt. Has nobody ever heard Cuban Linx, only one of the greatest albums ever? Done first and done 10 times better. Or how about 'Live and Let Die' - which was released in '92!


Jay-Z isn't fit to wipe G Rap's ass (or almost half of the other guys' on this list) - end of story.



At the very least the guy needs to be underneath Big L.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYfKMIdoJL0



Embarrassing. And that's Jay-Z before the fame and the money took away his skill.



The problem with these discussions is that way too many people who don't have the listening experience or knowledge want to come around acting like their favourite artists are the best. We got Jay-Z groupies who have only listened to 10 others albums by 10 other artists in hip-hop trying to tell true hip-hop heads the way things are. Man, hip-hop is my life. For close to 2 decades I've been devouring this stuff. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I've listened to thousands of albums tens of thousands of times. I'm not trying to say my word is the be all and end all - it's not - but there are some statements being made on here that are straight up blasphemous to anybody who really knows hip-hop. Nobody can try to tell me that Jay-Z is anywhere near KGR's level because anybody who appreciates hip-hop and has listened to even half of the stuff I have knows better and wouldn't dare. Better than Big L? KRS? Em'? Pun and Monche? All the Wu-Tang dudes - Deck and GZA? Give your heads a shake or start studying. There are 100 dudes like R.A. the Rugged Man you've probably never even heard of who have been out-gunning him for years. The only thing he did better than these men was sell records - and that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.


No more empty statements - some of you guys need to start backing your talk and provide some substance to your posts. Until then - opinions like these are hysterical and I'm questioning your basis and general hip-hop knowledge and intelligence. No list on this site can be perfect because there are so many fine lines when trying to define these sorts of things and seperate the best from the next best. But there are alot of really great ones on this site that are well done due to the contributions of many knowledgeable people. It's a shame that this one, and alot of the hip-hop ones in general, are downright awful.

^Excellent post, I too am sick of everyone being on Jay-Z's dick like he's the best thing that ever happened to rap. I think people let his massive cultural popularity eclipse everything else about him.

G. Rap was and is the superior emcee without a doubt in my mind.