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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:26 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
I admit to not having heard any pre-Dookie Green Day album, but there first two albums went almost unnoticed at the time of their release, and so this period lacks a lot by the criteria anyway. Also punk-pop in general is not very highly respected in punk circles (I know this is not part of the criteria, but the current criteria kinda suck anyway), and so I don't see a problem with it being seemingly underrepresented in comparison to its overall popularity.

I think that at least the current Top 15 should definitely stay ahead of Green Day. Those bands were much more influential and respected in the world of punk than Green Day's work. There are some bands below them that I could see ahead of them and vice versa but all in all their placement looks about right to me. But I'm not the editor of the list and so what I'm saying doesn't actually matter that much.

Almost unnoticed? Green Day were pretty big in the California punk scene. The thing is that they were in an independent label, so they couldn't reach a lot of places. And just before Dookie they went to a major label, and since those times they are called "Sell Outs" (that also happened to The Clash), but they did that because they sold so many records that the capacity of their independent label couldn't manage it. Kerplunk! (1992) is one of the best selling independent albums of all time. So they didn't go unnoticed, they were actually very popular. One thing is going unnoticed and another is you not knowing what happened. That album sold 50,000 copies at the time and is now Platinum. The only reason Green Day is not very respected is because they are considered "Sell Outs" for being in a major label and for painting their faces for American Idiot (many punk bands and proto punk bands have used make up). That is artistic expression. I will make a comparison with what happened to Metallica. They were called sell-outs for their "Black Album", but the truth is that that album brought a lot of attention to the genre and to a lot of other bands. That's what Green Day did. The difference is that GD keeps making quality records and stays relevant.

And as I have said before, Ramones were punk-pop. Just listen to their songs, and read the lyrics. Songs about love, about wanting to be a girls boyfriend, songs like "Let's Dance" that is the cover of a Pop song. They take a lot of surf-rock. So if we're trying to make an objective list, GD should be way up higher from where it is now. There are a ton of bands in this list that take a lot from punk-pop. The success of GD with Dookie alone allowed a whole generation of bands to be commercially succesful (Offspring, Blink182). Sure, they're not well regarded in the punk community, but it is influence. Why should influence on hardcore punk be more important than influence on punk-pop? It shouldn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:10 pm 
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What the hell? Conversation going on in the punk forum? I like it but unexpected. Yeah, i guess i could change the criteria, but i don't think the placements would change that much; Green Day might possibly be closer to top ten, but i wouldn't put them in as an automatic top 10.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Johnny wrote:
Almost unnoticed? Green Day were pretty big in the California punk scene. The thing is that they were in an independent label, so they couldn't reach a lot of places. And just before Dookie they went to a major label, and since those times they are called "Sell Outs" (that also happened to The Clash), but they did that because they sold so many records that the capacity of their independent label couldn't manage it. Kerplunk! (1992) is one of the best selling independent albums of all time. So they didn't go unnoticed, they were actually very popular. One thing is going unnoticed and another is you not knowing what happened. That album sold 50,000 copies at the time and is now Platinum. The only reason Green Day is not very respected is because they are considered "Sell Outs" for being in a major label and for painting their faces for American Idiot (many punk bands and proto punk bands have used make up). That is artistic expression. I will make a comparison with what happened to Metallica. They were called sell-outs for their "Black Album", but the truth is that that album brought a lot of attention to the genre and to a lot of other bands. That's what Green Day did. The difference is that GD keeps making quality records and stays relevant.

And as I have said before, Ramones were punk-pop. Just listen to their songs, and read the lyrics. Songs about love, about wanting to be a girls boyfriend, songs like "Let's Dance" that is the cover of a Pop song. They take a lot of surf-rock. So if we're trying to make an objective list, GD should be way up higher from where it is now. There are a ton of bands in this list that take a lot from punk-pop. The success of GD with Dookie alone allowed a whole generation of bands to be commercially succesful (Offspring, Blink182). Sure, they're not well regarded in the punk community, but it is influence. Why should influence on hardcore punk be more important than influence on punk-pop? It shouldn't.

Well, maybe almost unnoticed was an exaggeration, but I still don't think their pre-Dookie era work is very important when looking at punk as a whole. It really was "Dookie" that put them on the map for most people. "The difference is that GD keeps making quality records" is nothing but your own personal opinion and therefore completely irrelevant for this list. They may have stayed relevant as a commercial force but what they're doing stylistically now is far from groundbreaking, and also pretty far from punk. The only Green Day albums that became major critical successes were "Dookie" and "American Idiot", the latter being closer to alt-rock than actual punk.

The Ramones were not punk-pop in the 1970s. Punk largely developped from 1960's garage rock and the Ramones added a lot of surf rock to the equation, that's true. They also covered 1960's pop songs and all that made them important and influential on the development of punk-pop, a term that wasn't used until the 1980s. But the Ramones also had a different attitude towards their music than many of the 1990s pop-punk bands had. The Ramones were decisively anti-mainstream, singing not only about wanting to be some girl's boyfriend, but also about drug (ab)use, beating the brat with a baseball bat, a.s.o. I'm not trying to say here that 1990s pop-punk bands should not be considered punk at all, I'm just trying to express that it would be historically wrong to categorize the Ramones as punk-pop.

Now finally let me say again that Green Day was very very important for the development of punk-pop and that they influenced many bands on the outer fringes of punk and they should definitely be rather high on the list and that's exactly where they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:02 pm 
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I've been listening to The Pillows a ton recently, like just went through almost all their albums, and man they're one of the greatest punk bands I've ever heard. Like, I'd easily have them in my top 10. They're pretty big in asia, any chance they could make it on this list?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:15 pm 
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The pillows aren't punk; unless I am thinking about a different band named the pillows. Japanese band that has songs on the anime show FLCL, such as "Ride on shooting star"? They're an alternative band, and were inspired by college/indie rock of the 80s such as Pixies - of which they wrote a song called Kim Deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:01 pm 
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There should be at least some kind of Screamo representation somewhere on this list. The criteria seems to allow something like pg.99, Saetia or even Orchid to take a spot here.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Moss Icon, Orchid or Heroin would be the first bands to make the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:26 pm 
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New top 20. Thoughts:

1. The Clash
2. The Ramones
3. The Sex Pistols
4. Dead Kennedys
5. Black Flag
6. Fugazi
7. Minor Threat
8. Bad Brains
9. Misfits
10. Husker Du
11. Buzzcocks
12. The Minutemen
13. Green Day
14. The Damned
15. Refused
16. X
17. The Circle Jerks
18. Crass
19. Stiff Little Fingers
20. Bad Religion


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:28 pm 
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Television? Wire?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Post-punk, and shouldn't qualify for the list. I removed all post-punk, proto-punk, and alternative bands that did not make the cut the first go around.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Where are you drawing the line between punk and post-punk?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I would consider both Wire and Television to be labeled post-punk in retrospect rather than them actually being post-punk.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:08 pm 
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Post-punk and punk acts are different bands, that apply different techniques and structures to their songs. Synths, longer songs with repeating bars, more experimental song sturctures, slower tempos, lyrics, accented drums, or more textured guitar work.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in that you would consider them to be post-punk in retrospect, rather than actually being post-punk.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:10 pm 
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I'm saying that they were huge influences on post-punk rather than post-punk themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Punk Artists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:15 pm 
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Well they are post-punk. So i don't agree with your second point.


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