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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:35 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:27 am 
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I actually think Who's Next can leapfrog Purple Rain. It's certainly more acclaimed and influential, and it has a solid popularity score too.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:14 am 
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CRJ, I honestly don't think the rap vs. punk debate has any major bearing on the comparison between the three albums, but I'm just going to keep defending my viewpoint here. I'm probably not as musically knowledgeable as the average DDDer, but calling my post one of the dumbest in the history of the site is just crossing the line. It's an insult to my intelligence. Punk lasted for 5 years as the foremost rock genre, from the release of Never Mind The Bollocks... until new wave and pop/R&B took over. Most of the major punk proponents (The Pistols, The Clash, et al.) had already broken up by that time. 1982 was the year pop took over, with the release of Thriller and the ensuing paradigm shift in the industry.

I wasn't saying that rap was more famous than dance or rock in the East; I was only trying to say that rap had some measure of popularity here as well. Your statement was: "Rap is really only popular in the West". I merely refuted it.

Anyway, back on topic:

Influence: I understand that I've beaten you over the head with this many, many times, but it's probably the key point in this argument. London Calling and Abbey Road have practically zero influence, the former due to the fact that the punk style had already been firmly established by 1979 and rock music had by then already incorporated everything London Calling incorporated, while the latter is because, while it gets points for the medley and possibly Harrison's use of a Moog synthesizer, it really innovated nothing that the Beatles hadn't already spearheaded in the past with the RS - R - SPLHCB trilogy. Since you can't seem to accept Nation influenced the entire genre of rap (which it did), let's just say Nation had influence on most of rap. Still better than zero.

Acclaim: I'd like to see examples of detractors of NoM. Honestly, though, it's pretty much been praised as rap's masterpiece as much as LC's been praised as punk's masterpiece. Abbey Road is by the Beatles, so it gets auto high points for this. I'd say all three are pretty knotted here.

Popularity: Of course, Abbey Road kills in this one. This is actually the point when London Calling makes up for some of its losses in influence. Still, I don't believe that Abbey Road's outselling of NoM, even by this margin, is enough to outweigh NoM's influence advantage.

That's the crux of the argument: influence. Abbey Road and London Calling = close to nil; NoM's influence = massive. The influence outweighs the popularity advantage, and you haven't been able to prove me wrong on that one. Even if LC took acclaim (which, if it did, would be by only a small margin), it still can't outweigh NoM's influence advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:52 pm 
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I dont agree with your influence argument though.
Just because punk was established by 1979 doesnt mean LC couldnt have been influential.
Look at Judas Priest's album Sad Wings Of Destiny, for instance. Metal had already been established six years prior to it's release, but it is still one of the most influential metal albums ever. I dont really get this argument you're making, it doesnt make sense. An album doesn't have to be new and original to be influential.

That said, I'd say Nation > London, but I really could care less either way.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Deany wrote:
but calling my post one of the dumbest in the history of the site is just crossing the line.


I did not say your post was one of the dumbest in history, I never even said you're post is dumb. I think you're a great poster and have no issues on your intelligence. I said the notion that punk was only big for 5 years was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. one sentence does not imply your entire post or your posting history. It was that one statement I thought was incorrect, or just extremely ignorant. Nothing against you or your intelligence, sorry.


Last edited by Classic Rock Junkie on Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Deany wrote:
Influence: I understand that I've beaten you over the head with this many, many times, but it's probably the key point in this argument. London Calling and Abbey Road have practically zero influence, the former due to the fact that the punk style had already been firmly established by 1979 and rock music had by then already incorporated everything London Calling incorporated, while the latter is because, while it gets points for the medley and possibly Harrison's use of a Moog synthesizer, it really innovated nothing that the Beatles hadn't already spearheaded in the past with the RS - R - SPLHCB trilogy. Since you can't seem to accept Nation influenced the entire genre of rap (which it did), let's just say Nation had influence on most of rap. Still better than zero.


I think you are gravely misunderstanding me here. As someone who loves rap and hip-hop and has studied it's history and development thoroughly, I in no way have ever said NoM did not influence every rap album ever, as you keep saying I can't 'wrap my head around that'. I have never once said that it didn't, NoM is the single most influential rap/hip-hop album ever and has influenced every single album in the genre. All I've been saying is having influenced every album ever in one major sub-genre does not mean however that it's influence is so great it overshadows all the rest of rock and it's subgenres combined. It's the way you keep saying it. "Do you not understand that it influenced EVERY rap album EVER? Can you not wrap your head around that?". It sounds like you are trying to tell me that it's so influential for influencing every rap album that it's the end all of influence and trumps any other win in any other category by any margin. Autobahn or Trans-euro express (not sure which is more influential) has/have influenced every techno/dance album afterwards ever. EVER. That is much more influence than NoM. Yet am I saying that it's influence in that one sub-genre makes the album surpass Abbey Road or LC? No, because it's acclaim and popularity, though it's acclaim is also large, doesn't mean it wins solely on influence. It's the way you say that. I am not denying it influenced every rap/hip-hop album that came after, and I'm not denying that it's one of the top 20 most influential albums ever, arguably higher. Don't keep telling me I don't understand something that I have repeatedly stated myself multiple times.

Deany wrote:
Acclaim: I'd like to see examples of detractors of NoM. Honestly, though, it's pretty much been praised as rap's masterpiece as much as LC's been praised as punk's masterpiece. Abbey Road is by the Beatles, so it gets auto high points for this. I'd say all three are pretty knotted here.


You seem to feel London Calling only resides in punk, which is the exact thing I've been trying to tell you is not true. London Calling has not been praised as JUST punk's masterpiece, but one of the all time masterpieces in all of rock history, every sub genre and mainstream included. It is one of the quintessential rock albums for all things rock, mainstream, sub genre, and foreign. It is not just the best of punk, as NoM is the best of rap, it's so much more and that's what I think you fail to understand. NoM is an extremely important rock album and one of the best from a rock development and history standpoint. But to throw it in with all the genres ever, LC is vastly superior, with appeal stretching all over the place to fans of rock as a whole and nearly every sub-genre alike, and has been praised as such, where NoM is really strictly a rap/hip-hop album. As you've said before, if anything, LC is the furthest from punk album that the Clash ever produced.

Deany wrote:
Popularity: Of course, Abbey Road kills in this one. This is actually the point when London Calling makes up for some of its losses in influence. Still, I don't believe that Abbey Road's outselling of NoM, even by this margin, is enough to outweigh NoM's influence advantage.

That's the crux of the argument: influence. Abbey Road and London Calling = close to nilNoM's influence = massive. The influence outweighs the popularity advantage, and you haven't been able to prove me wrong on that one. Even if LC took acclaim (which, if it did, would be by only a small margin), it still can't outweigh NoM's influence advantage.


And this is where my issue comes up, you say Abbey Road and LC have next to no influence, they don't have anywhere near as much as NoM, but having no influence? I'd say they have moderate influence, at least Abbey Road which I could push up even higher arguing how extremely influential the medley and their harmonies were. It's in the top 10 best vocal albums of all time strictly on harmonic influence. And many artists have claimed LC as a huge influence on them for it's powerful structure and ability to outstretch it's genre by leaps and bounds while keeping itself simple. LC and AR don't have near 'nil' influence, I think that's ludicrous statement. Yes, they don't compare to the influence of NoM, but they have SOME influence, and I'd argue a moderate amount. Also, I feel LC and AR popularity AND acclaim are more than enough to tie if not surpass the massive amount of influence of NoM.

How I see it:

Influence (everything out of 100 and by comparison):

NoM: 95
Abbey Road: 60
LC: 50

Acclaim:

Abbey Road: 100 (It's hard to find a more world acclaimed album anywhere except for the Beatles trinity and Pet Sounds)
LC: 95 (Has nearly no detractors, nearly none, -5 for the sheer possibility of it)
NoM: 75/80 by comparison

Popularity:

Abbey Road: 100
LC: 85
NoM: 55

Look at it this way, Abbey Road has well over 10 mil album sales, accurate measurements became unable to count due to it's rapid increase in sales, hitting 10 mil in the 80's, the current thoroughly researched estiamted value is around 17 million. LC has around 5, NoM has a bit over 1.5 mil, and if you look at downloads as well, Abbey Road and LC surpass it by quite a bit. NoM also peaked at 42 on the billboard, where both Abbey Road and LC hit 1 and 27 respectively. If you want UK charts, it's NoM: 8, LC: 9, AR: 1.

So our totals are:

NoM: 225
LC: 230
AR: 260

Influence being a tie breaker, I see AR > LC > NoM, with NoM and LC being extremely close and can go either way depending on your bias and arguments. Either way, AR popularity is nearly as much of a lead in comparison as NoM's influence.


Last edited by Classic Rock Junkie on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Also, if we are putting as much an emphasis as you are on Influence, then Trans-Euro Express or Autobahn (not sure which was more influential, I think it was Trans-Euro Express, which also has more acclaim, but I mix them up a lot, they're both about giant European high ways and transportation stuff) should be top 20, if not ahead of NoM, as it's influence is way larger by influencing every album in a much larger, more worldwide, arguably more popular genre. So if you stick with this argument, then there is no reason that AB/TEE aren't top 20. Otherwise, it's just sheer logical fallacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:01 pm 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
However, NoM has influence in ONE sub genre and has a bit of cross over and I'm sure in comparison you'd say NoM beats VUGaN based on "It is the biggest rap album dude. Do you know how big rap IS?". It's seriously getting annoying. Alternatively, why isn't Trans-euro express/autobahn in the top 20? It's the most influential album in the whole genre of electronica, which as stated before, is a WAY larger, more popular, and more prolific genre than rap.


You asked elsewhere if there had been a more false statement on the board than the idea that punk only lasted five years. This one certainly is.

There are individual rap artists who have more major hit singles than the entire electronica genre has spawned. Now, you can say that electronica isn't a hit-single oriented genre, but that just points out that something can't be all that popular if it isn't a hit-single oriented genre, since hit singles are all most listeners ever know. And it's not as though electronica is outselling rap even counting only albums. Looking at last year's top-selling albums worldwide:

2. Eminem Recovery 5.6 million
8. Black Eyed Peas The End 3.0 million
26. Drake Thank Me Later 1.4 million
31. Black Eyed Peas The Beginning 1.2 million
37. Kanye West My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy 1.1 million

I don't see anything in the top 40 that remotely qualifies as electronica. I do several other things (Rhianna, Gorillaz) which are clearly influenced by hip-hop. (The list is available at mediatraffic.de and pinpointmusic.com.)


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Kraftwerk also influenced hip hop and it's pretty goofy that they're not on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
However, NoM has influence in ONE sub genre and has a bit of cross over and I'm sure in comparison you'd say NoM beats VUGaN based on "It is the biggest rap album dude. Do you know how big rap IS?". It's seriously getting annoying. Alternatively, why isn't Trans-euro express/autobahn in the top 20? It's the most influential album in the whole genre of electronica, which as stated before, is a WAY larger, more popular, and more prolific genre than rap.


You asked elsewhere if there had been a more false statement on the board than the idea that punk only lasted five years. This one certainly is.

There are individual rap artists who have more major hit singles than the entire electronica genre has spawned. Now, you can say that electronica isn't a hit-single oriented genre, but that just points out that something can't be all that popular if it isn't a hit-single oriented genre, since hit singles are all most listeners ever know. And it's not as though electronica is outselling rap even counting only albums. Looking at last year's top-selling albums worldwide:

2. Eminem Recovery 5.6 million
8. Black Eyed Peas The End 3.0 million
26. Drake Thank Me Later 1.4 million
31. Black Eyed Peas The Beginning 1.2 million
37. Kanye West My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy 1.1 million

I don't see anything in the top 40 that remotely qualifies as electronica. I do several other things (Rhianna, Gorillaz) which are clearly influenced by hip-hop. (The list is available at mediatraffic.de and pinpointmusic.com.)


Because hit singles in a few countries are a firm establishment of popularity, right? Metallica has never had a number 1 hit, and Queensryche has, so clearly Queensryche is more popular than Metallica...

So what if rap has a ton of hit singles in a few countries? That doesn't establish anything about worldwide popularity. Some extremely popular electronic artists don't even make albums and sell music strictly online, while others are generally downloaded or obtained outside of albums. Look up the number of electronic artists worldwide, look, if it is even providable, of the most played genres worldwide, played anywhere. Electronica has an undeniable lead. Mariah Carey has more hit singles than The Who and Zeppelin combined, so clearly her popularity is greater than both of theirs combined as well, right? Popularity can't be measured strictly in hit singles, or strictly in album sales either, and if you check worldwide electronica/dance music downloaded and purchased, not a doubt in my mind exists that it far surpasses rap. Nearly every person I know here in Beijing has a massive amount of electronica and dance downloaded, when I check back in the US, it's on par with rap now among college students and teens, with rap having the slight edge. That's on the east coast. Visting San Diego and LA, if you look at the new hit sensation known as 'gloving', and even among many teens and college students, even young adults, the amount of dance found in the area is more prevalent than rap, all the way up to san francisco, with large raves and conventions dedicated to dance music, the number of attendees and songs downloaded rivaling arguably that of rap concerts and performances in the area, which I know, is hard to believe. I mention teens and young adults (up to 30/40), because there are elderly who like metal, techno, and metal, however it's definitely not the norm and you'd be hard pressed to find it outside of certain circles. If you take all of Asia, Europe, and the rest of the world and look at dance music downloaded, bought, and listened to, rap is barely comparable. If you think otherwise, I suggest you start exploring the world and things other than looking at hit singles on the billboard, which mainly deals with the west, as I've never seen number 1 hits in China, which contains roughly 1/8 of the worlds population, topping the billboard top 100. Everything you guys reference is pretty much industry popularity in the west. 5.6 mil worldwide sales? I'd like to see the concentration of that list, as alternatively, I could reference a Japanese J-core artists who has an album with way more than that many downloads. I have no clue why everyone gets so butt-hurt when people start talking about rap for what it is. It is huge, and in it's 'golden years', nearly unbeatable in popularity. But the argument is, something has the maximum everything in that genre, influence, popularity, etc. And due to it's CURRENT POPULARITY, it is ARGUABLY the biggest SINGLE sub-genre, but that does not make it the end all of end alls. In 2005, raps sales had decreased by 44%, a huge number. Luckily there was a revival with some of it's greatest artists pushing out good new material, but does that mean it's as strong as it was? Genres push out new revival albums after dwindling, it shows they are still around and powerful, but it doesn't mean they have 25 years of consistant at the top popularity. If I brought this up in 2007, I'm sure this would be different. We can only see where rap goes, and I hope it continues to soar.


NoM popularity loss to Abbey Road is not enough to compare to NoM's massive influence take? If 17 million vs. 1.5 million is not large enough for you, then I don't know what you consider popular. And abbey road was found to be the most downloaded, and most pirated Beatles album of the last decade, just imagine how much further the numbers go! Checking downloads for NoM however, and sales, pale to Eminems recent album, as you've shown. Yet it's influence on rap is enough to overshadow AR's ungodly massive lead in popularity, and it's reasonable Influence, and unbeatable acclaim, is just being pretentious and a rap fanboy. I love rap. Maybe you guys are right, maybe I'm a purist. Maybe I love rap SO much that I hate to blow it out of proportion to risk not realizing what it truly is. Equally, I love the Beatles more than my own family, and I would rather die then try to compare Paul's guitar abilities to that of Duane Allman. Does that mean I'm not a Beatles fan? Does that mean I'm so against them and not fighting the fans fight? No. It means I love them enough to take them for what they are, and appreciate them for what they are. Same for rap. NoM is one of my favorite albums ever. I like it more than Abbey Road, as Abbey Road is not even one of my favorite Beatles albums (I got sick of it since my family and friends over played it and it was one of the only two albums quite a few of my friends seemed to know). However, if someone tells me influencing the whole of rap is a lead enough to overtake 17 million sales and unfathomable acclaim, that's when I get angry. I lived through NoM's release, I loved it, and I remember getting mad at all the detractors and mediocre reviews and critic complaints about lyrical content and lack of musicality, and I reveled in the massive amount of positive reviews for something fresh with a voice, and complimenting it's rhythmic potency and no holds barred ability. Similarly to when Never Mind the Bollocks was released. Difference is, NoM never hit number 1.

Think what you will, say what you will. I love Rap, and I will fight for it to the death. The most honest love and appreciation in my eyes is to discover exactly what it is you love, and appreciate all of it's greatness and all of it's faults. Maybe it's because I'm jewish, but idolizing a false idol pisses me off more than anything else. Worshipping something as something it's not makes me extremely angry, especially when it's something I love. You are welcome to worship it to that degree on your own, but don't shove your overblown ideals onto me.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:55 am 
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Okay, so I've been getting way too worked up and belligerent recently, I'll stop and get back on topic.

I think there is a case for Abbey Road being higher than NoM, and I guess LC should be right behind it, since they pretty much tie and NoM takes influence.

I also think Autobahn/Trans-euro express (again, not sure which is more influential) belong in top 30 if influence is this big a deal, same with Velvet Underground and Nico.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:36 am 
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I think all criteria are the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:39 am 
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I'd bump the Kraftwerk albums down a tad. Top 30 seems too much. VUGaN is probably top 30 though, but it's popularity is sorely lacking.

Also, yes, I'd agree with Abbey Road > NoM > Calling. Incidentally, that's also my order of preference on the three.

Great argument. I had fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:10 am 
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London Calling is by far the best, not greatest, of those imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Albums of All Time
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:17 am 
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Subjective, but Abbey freaking Road, man. The medley should probably be one of the 100 greatest moments in rock history.


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