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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
6) I don't remember the Go-Gos ever being "maybe the most talked about band" in rock. I don't see that album as comparing to those other New Wave albums in lasting popularity or influence, even if they win in initial popularity (and I don't think they beat The Cars there--the Cars album stayed on the charts for two years and every song got significant radio play).


In 1981 The Go-Go's were huge - a lot of it having to do with cute girls acting as decadent as guys no doubt, plus having a handful of big hits. They had more impact than the Cars without a doubt, who've always been sort of underrated despite their success. The Cars do take lasting popularity, but that's offset by the Go-Go's intial popularity.

Brett Alan wrote:
7) Sampson, I don't understand how you can say that Whitney Houston's debut doesn't have influence to match its popularity--it set the template for the role of the diva in the music industry ever since (Mariah, Celine, etc.) and for a lot of the American Idol sound as well. I also don't understand how you can say I should lower the VU album because all it has is influence, and then want me to raise the MC5 album. The MC5 album beats the VU in initial popularity, but it doesn't have much, and to me VU clearly wins big in influence and wins in lasting popularity, too.


A lot of the diva stuff was prevalant in the non-rock fields with woman. Whitney always straddled that line, as did Mariah and I don't consider Ceine Dion anything close to rock, and American Idol, while popular, is kind of irrelevant. It's a TV show, exactly the same as Star Search used to be, just with a bigger audience and recording tie-ins. Whitney's debut has some influence overall definitely, but I'd just have it in the next range of albums 26-35, that's all.

As for VU vs. The MC5. I have VU at 17 and the MC5 a few spots lower, so I agree that the influence of the Velvet Underground & Nico allows it to win out. But there's no question that the impact of the MC5 was more significant, it's initial popularity was as well, and despite it's familiarity, the VU album STILL doesn't sell. It's got under 500,000 total sales after forty years, so I wouldn't give it lasting popularity either. Lasting name recognition, yes, but that's totally different. Influentially, the MC5 does great on punk, so they're not lacking there.

But I don't think it's a question of comparing them. I just think VU should be lowered from a position it doesn't quite earn because it does very bad in all but one area of the criteria. I think the MC5 deserves a bump because it does well in multiple areas of the criteria. But head to head VU's one big win is enough to keep it at a slightly higher spot.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:22 pm 
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J.B. Trance wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
3) Sorry, JB, if I reacted badly to your list--I think I was a little overwhelmed.


It's not a big deal; I don't think you reacted badly at all. It's understandable that you were a little overwhelmed...considering the longer lists I've done in the past. :biggrin:


hehe. Yeah, I do appreciate it; I guess I just had the mindset that I was ready to send in a revision, and now it's all changing again. But now that I see it's going to end up with a better version of the list, I'm happy with that. So thanks, to you and everyone else keeping things going on this thread. I'm considering everything and will definitely make some moves. Hopefully over the next few days I'll also be able to look up all the new suggestions, confirm eligibility, and so on.

Speaking of eligibility: I'm thinking Traffic should really come off the list, since Winwood was already prominent through the Spencer Davis Group. Any objections out there?

J.B. Trance wrote:
What I was trying to get at was that a sentence or two about how EP's are being treated should be mentioned somewhere in the explanation of the list so that it gives a much clearer picture. For instance, when someone wonders why Coldplay's Parachutes isn't included, you can tell them because they had a previous album-like EP or they can read the criteria and figure it out that way.


That's a good point. I think when we first made the list there was still the discussion right on the page, so this wasn't so essential. I will definitely add that to the criteria. Good idea.

J.B. Trance wrote:
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I think what I'd like to do is finish the revision of this list, start making notes for expanding it, and then when I send that in ask Lew if he's OK with me expanding the list.


Lew is fine with this, especially when it's a wide-appealing list like this one.


OK, well, I still want to get a revised 100 up, to include the things we had already agreed needed to be added (Mariah, Kanye, Gaga, Keys, etc.) and the new suggestions such as Blige and the Stylistics. And probably Whitney, at this point. And then when that's done I can look at the next 50 or 100.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Speaking of eligibility: I'm thinking Traffic should really come off the list, since Winwood was already prominent through the Spencer Davis Group. Any objections out there?


Yeah, I would take Traffic off the list. The Spencer Davis Group scored significant hits, especially on the albums and singles front in the UK, and Steve Winwood no doubt was popular as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:36 pm 
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OK, I'm going to throw a draft up here. This incorporates a lot of the feedback I've been given: a bunch of albums added (indicated with *****, although this also appears on those added in the previous draft), some deleted (Funkadelic, Vanilla Fudge, Queen), and some moved down (Aerosmith, Jesus & Mary Chain--that was on my own initiative) and some up (Beastie Boys, Run-DMC).

A couple of notes on proposed additions: Under The Table & Dreaming is not the DMB's debut; they had a full-length indie release before that called Remember Two Things (it has since been rereleased on a major and sold well). I also didn't include Salt-N-Pepa because the version of their debut album that was really successful was a second release--the first version did not include "Push It". That leaves other proposed additions that I determined didn't quite make it, such as Counting Crows, Outkast, and Boyz II Men. I'm still happy to entertain arguments that they belong, but please be specific as to what they ought to replace, and why. All of those albums are pretty certain to appear when I expand the list (presuming Lew doesn't object to that), along with everything that is getting dropped EXCEPT Peter Paul & Mary and Traffic, which have been determined ineligible.

You'll note that I have four more entries than spaces, so we still need to drop things. Again, if you want one of the bottom four to stay, please make a case relative to one of the albums that I have making it, if possible.

Comments of course appreciated on the placement within the list, and in particular on where the new entries have landed.

Oh, and pardon the inconsistent use of parentheses. I think I'm going to take those out entirely.



1 Are You Experienced? (1967) - (Jimi Hendrix Experience)
2 Led Zeppelin (1969) - (Led Zeppelin)
3 The Doors (1967) - (Doors)
4 Ten (1991) - (Pearl Jam)
5 Elvis Presley (1956) - (Elvis Presley)
6 Run-D.M.C. (1984) - (Run-D.M.C.)
7 Licensed To Ill (1986) - (Beastie Boys)
8 Whitney Houston (1985) - Whitney Houston *****
9 The Velvet Underground & Nico (1967) - (Velvet Underground)
10 Appetite For Destruction (1987) - (Guns N' Roses)
11 My Aim Is True (1977) - (Elvis Costello)
12 Van Halen (1978) - (Van Halen)
13 Mr. Tambourine Man (1965) - (Byrds)
14 Boston (1976) – (Boston)
15 Black Sabbath (1970) - (Black Sabbath)
16 Music From Big Pink (1968) - (The Band)
17 Please Please Me (1963) - (The Beatles)
18 Ramones (1976) - (Ramones)
19 Mariah Carey (1990) – (Mariah Carey) *****
20 Ready To Die (1994) - (Notorious B.I.G.)
21 In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969) - (King Crimson)
22 The Fame (2008) - (Lady Gaga) *****
23 Fresh Cream (1966) - (Cream)
24 Chicago Transit Authority (1969) - (Chicago)
25 Kill 'Em All (1983) – (Metallica)
26 Songs In A Minor (2001) - (Alicia Keys) *****
27 Kick Out The Jams (1969) - (MC5)
28 The College Dropout (2004) – (Kanye West) *****
29 What's The 411? (1992) – Mary J. Blige *****
30 Paid In Full (1987) – Eric B & Rakim *****
31 Buffalo Springfield (1966) - (Buffalo Springfield)
32 Vincebus Eruptum (1968) - (Blue Cheer)
33 Never Mind The Bollocks Here's The Sex Pistols (1977) - (Sex Pistols)
34 Yourself Or Something Like You (1996) – Matchbox 20 *****
35 Dire Straits (1978) - (Dire Straits)
36 The Stooges (1969) - (Stooges)
37 The Pretenders (1980) – (Pretenders)
38 Piper At The Gates Of Dawn (1967) - (Pink Floyd)
39 Santana (1969) - (Santana)
40 The Cars (1978) - (Cars)
41 Reasonable Doubt (1996) – Jay-Z *****
42 Freak Out (1966) - (Mothers Of Invention)
43 Unknown Pleasures (1979) - (Joy Division)
44 Enter The Wu-Tang: 36 Chambers (1993) - (Wu-Tang Clan)
45 Can't Buy A Thrill (1972) - (Steely Dan)
46 My Generation (1965) - (The Who)
47 Rolling Stones (1964) - (Rolling Stones)
48 The Stylistics (1971) – The Stylistics *****
49 Forever Your Girl (1988) – Paula Abdul *****
50 Boy (1980) - (U2)
51 The B-52s (1979) – (B-52s)
52 Bluejean Bop (1956) - (Gene Vincent & the Blue Caps)
53 The Chirping Crickets (1957) - (Buddy Holly & the Crickets)
54 The Clash (1977) - (Clash)
55 Texas Flood (1983) - (Stevie Ray Vaughan & Double Trouble
56 If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears (1966) - (Mamas & Papas)
57 Horses (1975) - (Patti Smith Group)
58 Look Sharp! (1979) - (Joe Jackson)
59 Creedence Clearwater Revival (1968) - (Creedence Clearwater Revival)
60 The Monkees (1966) - (Monkees)
61 Dreamboat Annie (1976) - (Heart)
62 Emerson, Lake & Palmer (1970) - (Emerson, Lake & Palmer)
63 Beauty And The Beat (1981) - (Go-Go's)
64 New York Dolls (1973) - (New York Dolls)
65 Outlandos d'Amour (1978) - (Police)
66 Supa Dupa Fly (1997) – Missy “Misdemeanor” Elliott *****
67 Shotgun (1965) - (Jr. Walker & The All-Stars)
68 The Smiths (1984) - (Smiths)
69 Eagles (1972) - (Eagles)
70 Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers (1976) - (Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers)
71 3 Feet High And Rising (1989) - (De La Soul)
72 Greetings From Asbury Park, N.J. (1973) - (Bruce Springsteen)
73 Steppenwolf (1968) - (Steppenwolf)
74 Procol Harum (1967) - (Procol Harum)
75 Aerosmith (1973) - (Aerosmith)
76 Rage Against The Machine (1992) - (Rage Against The Machine)
77 Foreigner (1977) - (Foreigner)
78 Diana Ross Presents The Jackson 5 (1969) - (Jackson 5)
79 Radio (1985) - (LL Cool J)
80 The Animals (1964) - (Animals)
81 Green Onions (1962) - (Booker T. & The MG's)
82 Illmatic (1994) – (Nas)
83 The Stone Roses (1989) - (The Stone Roses)
84 Marquee Moon (1977) - (Television)
85 Yo! Bum Rush The Show (1987) - (Public Enemy)
86 Psychocandy (1985) - (The Jesus & Mary Chain)
87 The Meters (1969) - (Meters)
88 Iron Maiden (1980) - (Iron Maiden)
89 Big Brother & The Holding Company (1967) - (Big Brother & the Holding Company)
90 Is This It (2001) - (The Strokes) *****
91 Tubular Bells (1973) - (Mike Oldfield)
92 In The Heat Of The Night (1979) - (Pat Benatar)
93 Get The Knack (1979) - (The Knack)
94 19 (2008) – Adele *****
95 Pronounced Leh-Nerd Skin-Nerd (1973) - (Lynyrd Skynyrd)
96 Pretty Hate Machine (1989) - (Nine Inch Nails)
97 Shake Your Money Maker (1990) - (Black Crowes)
98 Long Live The Kane (1988) – Big Daddy Kane *****
99 Roxy Music (1972) - (Roxy Music)
100 Talking Heads: 77 (1977) - (Talking Heads)
The Young Rascals (1966) - (Young Rascals)
With A Little Help From My Friends (1969) - (Joe Cocker)
Grace (1994) – Jeff Buckley *****
Definitely Maybe (1994) - (Oasis)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:16 pm 
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I still gotta ask why If You Can Believe Your Eyes & Ears is so damn low. It should be Top ten at the least. I mean, compare it to VU & Nico. Initial & lasting Popularity is virtually a shut out for The M&P's. Remember, that album stayed on the charts as long as any rock album to that time virtually. The Velvet Underground hasn't sold as many copies in forty years as the M&P did its first two years in print. Yeah, VU has influence, but its impact was much smaller than Eyes & Ears which totally changed the perception of the west coast rock scene. Nobody really became aware of VU outside a small cult until much later. By contrast the Mama's & The Papa's were immediately seen as being on par with the elite of rock at that time, which included the Beatles, Beach Boys, Motown and the like. It's inconceivable that it's at 56, one spot behind Stevie Ray Vaughan, which isn't even a rock album, which he'd have told you himself, as proud as he was of being a bluesman. It almost seems like a twisted joke. What am I missing - the punchline?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Seems very good, Brett. Great job.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
I still gotta ask why If You Can Believe Your Eyes & Ears is so damn low. It should be Top ten at the least. I mean, compare it to VU & Nico. Initial & lasting Popularity is virtually a shut out for The M&P's.


The M&P album does not have much lasting popularity at all. It was not even in print in the 70s and 80s. There was no demand for the album anymore after the 60s. It's chart run all goes under "initial popularity." After that the album was virually forgotten as an album, with a few of the main tracks remaining popular as part of collections. It's not even in their top 100 albums for 1966.

The album only has 859 ratings on RateYourMusic, while the VU album (which blows IMO) has 14,262 ratings on the site. It also has more reviews (1,015) than the M&P album has ratings.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:38 pm 
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I don't think If You Can Believe... ranks with VU, but I will definitely move it up.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
A couple of notes on proposed additions: Under The Table & Dreaming is not the DMB's debut; they had a full-length indie release before that called Remember Two Things (it has since been rereleased on a major and sold well). I also didn't include Salt-N-Pepa because the version of their debut album that was really successful was a second release--the first version did not include "Push It".


You did your homework, good job. Again, I was merely giving suggestions, not saying that they were nothing but the respective artist's debut albums or that they were shoo-ins for the list.

The list, as it stands, is a much better improvement.

BTW, have you had a chance to revise the explanation?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
I don't think If You Can Believe... ranks with VU, but I will definitely move it up.


Well, break down the criteria. Actually, first let's take another album way above If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears that came out around the same time and in the same basic folk-rock style, the first Buffalo Springfield album. Popularity - M&P #1 and on the charts for two full years, 105 weeks in all. BS - made just #80 and was on the charts only 16 weeks. Lasting popularity, M&P sold far more, it went gold, BS never did. Influence - M&P. The production on that, the vocal arrangements, the songwriting were all influential. BS - little. There was nothing groundbreaking about the album. It's good, but it's pretty standard for the time. Plus the fact that the M&P came first, and since both are essentially folk-rock albums, it stands to reason that the earlier one had more influence. Lastly, impact. M&P. Not even close. All of the aforementioned things, the production, vocal arrangements and songs themselves turned everybody's head in 1966. They were being viewed as serious rivals to the Beatles at the time. The image of their music changed the entire focus of the West Coast rock scene at the time, from the upbeat styles of Jan & Dean, The Beach Boys and the like to downcast and introspective. Love, The Doors, etc. all followed that lead, even though their styles were different, the overall mood changed. Springfield were well regarded within music, but still known mostly locally after their debut. It had one hit on it and only two other songs that could be called Springfield staples. It was their follow-up album that was the most acclaimed by other artists because it had the far more adventurish songs on it.

So If You Can Believe Your Eyes & Ears blows Springfield away in every single criteria, yet is twenty-five spots lower? Explain that, I don't get it.

You can do the same with VU & Nico. That album wins influence, absolutely. Nothing else. It's impact was negligible. Not enough artists even knew about it to react strongly. They were seen as an Andy Warhol sideshow more at the time. Put it this way, if the VU album were to have matched the M&P album in impact, then within the next year or two the Velvet Underground would've logically been acclaimed by their fellow artists as geniuses, even if it was under appreciated geniuses, but we know that wasn't the case. By contrast, the Mamas & Papas were among the most talked about groups of their day from the moment their first album dropped to the time they broke up. The M&P were hanging out with John Lennon, the Byrds, John Phillips was organizing the Monterey Pop Festival... none of this would've been happening had they not made a huge impact within the rock world and they made it right out of the gate as a result of the first album! This isn't hard to see. Obviously with the popularity criteria the M&P win in a landslide. The Velvet Underground & Nico hit #171 on the charts. Or, 171 spots behind the M&P to put it in perspective. The VU album still has sold under five hundred thousand copies, much less than the M&P, so you can't possibly give it lasting popularity when it's sold fewer copies over 45 years. So one win, even if that win is substantial (but don't forget the M&P album has plenty of influence of it's own) is somehow enough to overwhelm huge margins of victory in the rest of the criteria, every single area??? How?

I'm just following the criteria and this doesn't make ANY sense. All three albums were released within a year of each other, so the marketplace was the same as was the rock scene (obviously) at the time, which makes it far easier to judge impact than comparing two artists from thirty years apart in different markets. So this just doesn't add up. Please, explain it to me, break it down the same way and show me what I'm missing somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:18 pm 
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Sampson wrote:

Well, break down the criteria. Actually, first let's take another album way above If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears that came out around the same time and in the same basic folk-rock style, the first Buffalo Springfield album. Popularity - M&P #1 and on the charts for two full years, 105 weeks in all. BS - made just #80 and was on the charts only 16 weeks. Lasting popularity, M&P sold far more, it went gold, BS never did.


It may beat the BS album in lasting popularity, as neither album was even in print after the early 1970s until recent years. I can tell you this though. The first BS album was in demand in the mid-70s while nobody was looking for the M&P album. I was selling out of print albums then and sold dozens of copies of the BS album. Nobody ever asked for the M&P album.

Since you never used lasting popularity as part of your lists and i was the one who made it part of a criteria, let me tell you this. You don't use total sales to determine lasting popularity. Yes, the M&P album went gold, but that was ALL from its initial popularity. The album was not even in print after about 1970 until at least the 1990s, maybe later. There's no way that it has been as popular, as an album, as the VU album has been over the past 25 years or so.

Sampson wrote:
Influence - M&P. The production on that, the vocal arrangements, the songwriting were all influential. BS - little. There was nothing groundbreaking about the album. It's good, but it's pretty standard for the time. Plus the fact that the M&P came first, and since both are essentially folk-rock albums, it stands to reason that the earlier one had more influence.


I don't consider the M&P to be folk rock. It's much more pop than anything else. "Go Where You Wanna Go" is not a folk rock song. "Do You Wanna Dance" and "I Call Your Name" are not folk rock. More than half the songs are remakes so that negates songwriting. which I thought that you did not include when ranking artists anyway?

Sampson wrote:
Lastly, impact. M&P. Not even close. All of the aforementioned things, the production, vocal arrangements and songs themselves turned everybody's head in 1966. They were being viewed as serious rivals to the Beatles at the time.


Once again, are you insane? Serious rivals to the Beatles?

Sampson wrote:
The image of their music changed the entire focus of the West Coast rock scene at the time, from the upbeat styles of Jan & Dean, The Beach Boys and the like to downcast and introspective. Love, The Doors, etc. all followed that lead, even though their styles were different, the overall mood changed. Springfield were well regarded within music, but still known mostly locally after their debut. It had one hit on it and only two other songs that could be called Springfield staples. It was their follow-up album that was the most acclaimed by other artists because it had the far more adventurish songs on it.


Actually, "For What It's Worth" was not on the album at first. It was added and another song was dropped, but only after "For What It's Worth" became a big hit single.

The original song lineup:
A1 Go and Say Goodbye 2:20
A2 Sit Down I Think I Love You 2:32
A3 Leave 2:42
A4 Nowadays Clancy Can't Even Sing 3:25
A5 Hot Dusty Roads 2:50
A6 Everybody's Wrong 2:23
B1 Flying on the Ground Is Wrong 2:40
B2 Burned 2:16
B3 Do I Have to Come Right Out and Say It 3:01
B4 Baby Don't Scold Me 3:04
B5 Out of My Mind 3:05
B6 Pay the Price 2:36


Just how did the Doors follow the lead of the M&P ? Do you think that "Back Door Man" and "The End" were influenced by the M&P album?


Sampson wrote:
So If You Can Believe Your Eyes & Ears blows Springfield away in every single criteria, yet is twenty-five spots lower? Explain that, I don't get it.


It probably means that the BS is too high rather than the M&P being too low. Especially if you consider the BS album as first released, without the big hit single.

Sampson wrote:
You can do the same with VU & Nico. That album wins influence, absolutely. Nothing else.


It also wins lasting popularity. The album is now a well known classic with millions around the world who were not even born until the 1970s or 1980s or later, while very few people who were not around at the time even know the M&P album. They know a few songs FROM the album, but not the album specifically.

Sampson wrote:
The Velvet Underground & Nico hit #171 on the charts. Or, 171 spots behind the M&P to put it in perspective.


I guess math is not your strong suit. 171 is 170 spots behind #1, not 171 spots behind #1.


Sampson wrote:
The VU album still has sold under five hundred thousand copies, much less than the M&P, so you can't possibly give it lasting popularity when it's sold fewer copies over 45 years.


A - Yes you can. If the other album had all of its sales during its initial chart run, then it has no lasting popularity.

B - The under 500,000 number is only for the USA. Worldwide by now it's probably over a million copies. It has clearly sold more and been much more popular over the last 25-30 years than the M&P album.

The M&P album is currently #32,908 on Amazon. The VU and Nico album is #618.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:14 pm 
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Nice work, Brett. You did a great job of balancing close to 6 decades of rock history.

Have you considered adding "Do You Believe In Magic" (1965) by the Lovin' Spoonful. Some pretty big tracks on that album.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Since "For What It's Worth" wasn't on the original BS album, it's going to be moved way down, if not out. Gotta be consistent with the logic for Salt-N-Pepa.

JB, didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong by suggesting S-N-P, but if I find any reason to disqualify or seriously downgrade an album that's been mentioned here, I think I ought to post that.

Adam, I will look at the Spoonful album.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:37 pm 
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It's all good. Just wanted you to be aware.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:23 am 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Adam, I will look at the Spoonful album.


Cool. I know you put a lot of work into the list and I'm sure there were a lot of close calls. Did you also consider "The Psychedelic Sounds of the 13th Floor Elevators" (1966) ? Its initial popularity is lacking, granted, but I would say it makes up for that with lasting popularity as well as influence.


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