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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:59 am 
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Yeah, I got that song mixed up with their minor hit "Shine On Silver Moon" since they both began with "S" (I was going by memory), but regardless, it was still listed under a black duo that Whitney Houston remade into an obvious hit.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
So...Paul, how about some explanation for the ones you think should be moved? Don't forget that the critieria are rather different than a lot of other albums lists here.

I didn't see the part about the pre-album singles. Does that mean that any album that had a single released before the actual album will automatically receive a little less credit or does it only refer to albums where most of the material was available beforehand?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:23 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
So...Paul, how about some explanation for the ones you think should be moved? Don't forget that the critieria are rather different than a lot of other albums lists here.

I didn't see the part about the pre-album singles. Does that mean that any album that had a single released before the actual album will automatically receive a little less credit or does it only refer to albums where most of the material was available beforehand?


Well, it's a little more complex than that.

Most albums have a single released a little bit in advance of the album, and that's been common practice in the industry for most of the rock era. When that's the case, it really doesn't factor in at all.

The real question is how much the debut album introduced the artist to the world. Elvis and the Sex Pistols, for example, lose some standing on the list because many people got to know them through singles--in the case of Elvis, singles that weren't included on the debut, and in the case of the Pistols, singles that were successful in the UK well before the album came out. That's the kind of thing that part of the critieria refers to. A lot of fifties artists had a bunch of hit singles before they put out an album (which often then included the singles). But even one single could make the debut album less impactful if that single was well in advance of the album.

But also be aware that acclaim (from critics or from other musicians) is not a factor at all on this list. When you talk about moving Radio up, for example, I wonder if you're aware of that. Radio doesn't do that well in popularity, which is half the criteria.

Does that answer your question?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Does that answer your question?

Yes it does, thanks. So if acclaim is not factored in at all and (intial and lasting) popularity makes up half of the the criteria that means that the rest would pretty much be (direct and indirect) influence, or how do you understand impact?

Anyway, if acclaim doesn't matter, then the list might actually be very good. You definitely did a good on job on it either way and as I said those albums I mentioned were just a few things I noticed on first glance. Some seemed too high because they appear rather insignificant when looking at the artist's later discography (Aerosmith, Queen), some are largely forgotten today (Shotgun, Big Brother & the Holding Company), some seemed too low because they are so widely acclaimed, but all that doesn't have anything to do with the criteria so maybe just ignore my comment. I still wouldn't consider Peter, Paul & Mary rock though.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:10 pm 
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I gotta make a case for The Stylistics debut album. One of the most criminally underrated groups historically, despite huge success and influence, their first three albums are arguably all five star releases, which is virtually unrivaled in rock history (unfortunately they fell off some creatively after that when they split with producer Thom Bell). Their debut though was hugely influential on the Philly soul style that was a cornerstone of early 70's rock, it was one of the records that established the high falsetto lead that was so prevalent in that era, plus it went to #23 on the charts, which black albums up to that point traditionally hadn't done that much (that all changed with Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin' On). So in the criteria it does very well, definitely enough to crack the Top 50.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
I gotta make a case for The Stylistics debut album. One of the most criminally underrated groups historically, despite huge success and influence, their first three albums are arguably all five star releases, which is virtually unrivaled in rock history (unfortunately they fell off some creatively after that when they split with producer Thom Bell). Their debut though was hugely influential on the Philly soul style that was a cornerstone of early 70's rock, it was one of the records that established the high falsetto lead that was so prevalent in that era, plus it went to #23 on the charts, which black albums up to that point traditionally hadn't done that much (that all changed with Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin' On). So in the criteria it does very well, definitely enough to crack the Top 50.


Hard to believe it got to #23. I don't think I've ever seen the album, but it was from a few years before I started working in a store that mainly sold black stuff for sales of current music. Clearly the hit singles on that album were huge. I remember their later album from selling them in the store.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:52 pm 
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You're absolutely right. The early Thom Bell produced Stylistics stuff was the standard sound of Philly International. Bells use of MFSB and those warm brass and woodwinds extended out to groups like Blue Magic (largely Bobby Eli and Norman Harris produced but Bell inspired) and the Bell produced Spinners material. BEWARE...the group touring as The Stylistics today were really the background singers (who didn't even sing on many of the actual original recordings) with lead singer Eban Brown, who was a guitarist and sang in several different groups in the 70's. The REAL Stylistics were with Russell Thompkins Jr on lead with his patented nasal falsetto. Russell today tours with his own group, Russell Thompkins Jr and The New Stylistics, due to legalities over ownership of The Stylistics name. Russell is the REAL deal.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:28 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
Does that answer your question?

Yes it does, thanks. So if acclaim is not factored in at all and (intial and lasting) popularity makes up half of the the criteria that means that the rest would pretty much be (direct and indirect) influence, or how do you understand impact?


Impact is about the effect of the album's release. For example, Run-DMC does well on impact because the release of that album focused attention on hip-hop in general and probably helped get a lot of things rolling--rappers getting signed, hip-hop radio shows getting going, that sort of thing. The Ramones get similar points for that album's effect on the New York downtown scene and the development of punk. Other albums such as the Hendrix, Doors, and Boston get impact points for a more mainstream impact, getting the artist major attention and having an effect on the course of the music business.

It's also here that I take into account how important the debut was to the beginning of the artist's career, much as the Live Artists list takes into account how much the artist's live work affected their career. That's why Elvis isn't even higher; the album was very important, but a lot of people got to know Elvis through other songs.

(Bruce, am I missing anything important from this summary?)

pauldrach wrote:
Anyway, if acclaim doesn't matter, then the list might actually be very good.


Thanks. I should point out that a lot of the credit for that should go to Bruce; he originally started work on the list, and brought me in to assist (which I think was my first involvement with DDD), and eventually turned the list over to me. A lot of the shape of the list is the result of his initial work, and of course other DDDers have contributed over the years as well.

Of course, if you still think anything is out of line, let me know. I think I'm sold on taking PP&M off the list. :ugh:


Last edited by Brett Alan on Mon May 07, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
I gotta make a case for The Stylistics debut album. One of the most criminally underrated groups historically, despite huge success and influence, their first three albums are arguably all five star releases, which is virtually unrivaled in rock history (unfortunately they fell off some creatively after that when they split with producer Thom Bell). Their debut though was hugely influential on the Philly soul style that was a cornerstone of early 70's rock, it was one of the records that established the high falsetto lead that was so prevalent in that era, plus it went to #23 on the charts, which black albums up to that point traditionally hadn't done that much (that all changed with Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin' On). So in the criteria it does very well, definitely enough to crack the Top 50.


Man, how did we miss that?

I'm open to comments on where to place this, but it definitely belongs on the list. Thanks.

Of course, that means I definitely need to remove at least one album--two if we put Whitney on. What should go?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
(Bruce, am I missing anything important from this summary?)



No, I think you've got it covered.

I'm not an album person, and also Brett was way more in tune with more current stuff than I was, after he agreed to come around I thought it was best to let him take over this list if he was willing.

Maybe Nine Inch Nails and Vanilla Fudge can go if they haven't already. The Fudge album was real significant for a couple of years, but it quickly became played out I think. I don't think it meant very much anymore by the early 1970s. It was already thought of as dated.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:46 am 
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Sampson wrote:
I gotta make a case for The Stylistics debut album. One of the most criminally underrated groups historically, despite huge success and influence, their first three albums are arguably all five star releases, which is virtually unrivaled in rock history (unfortunately they fell off some creatively after that when they split with producer Thom Bell). Their debut though was hugely influential on the Philly soul style that was a cornerstone of early 70's rock, it was one of the records that established the high falsetto lead that was so prevalent in that era, plus it went to #23 on the charts, which black albums up to that point traditionally hadn't done that much (that all changed with Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin' On). So in the criteria it does very well, definitely enough to crack the Top 50.


Ohhhhhh man, the Stylistics. You had to do it, didn't you?

A short while back, I had this job working with the low-income housing authorities in Ohio. I worked with nothing but black guys 100% of the time, and we got to drive around and go work in a lot of different ghettos (we were movers for the housing authority). We would always jam the oldies r&b station, which I loved, and I remember absolutely falling IN LOVE with this song:



The melody just grabbed me and didn't let go, and every time I hear that song it takes me to that awesome time in my life. You guys don't even know.
If all music sounded like The Stylistics, the world would be a better place.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Hey Creep...Do you remember this Stylistics classic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDRSb1B9 ... ata_player

Not their biggest hit but one of my favorites.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:25 pm 
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I don't know if I've weighed in yet on this, but I think Whitney should be added.

Since you're looking for albums to drop, I'd start with PP&M since I don't think it's rock. Two others that could be dropped are KISS and Big Brother & the Holding Company, neither of which has especially good chart numbers, and I don't see where they make up for that. Of the two Bruce mentioned, Vanilla Fudge could be dropped. I wouldn't drop NIN. It's an innovative 2x platinum album that spent 113 weeks on the charts, and it's an album that people still listen to.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:26 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
two if we put Whitney on. What should go?


Peter, Paul & Mary. Whitney should have already been on the list from the get-go.

BTW, your list on page 1 isn't updated.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Some important debut hip-hop albums:

Reasonable Doubt - Jay-Z
Long Live The Kane - Big Daddy Kane
Doggystyle - Snoop Doggy Dogg
Paid In Full - Eric B. & Rakim
The Chronic - Dr. Dre
Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik - Outkast
AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted - Ice Cube


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