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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:43 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Dave Marsh - The 1001 Greatest Singles Ever Made (1989)



Who cares what this guy thinks is good?


Not me, but that still leaves the other ten sources ClashWho gave you....


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Dave Marsh - The 1001 Greatest Singles Ever Made (1989)



Who cares what this guy thinks is good?


Not me, but that still leaves the other ten sources ClashWho gave you....


Most sources that he gave me were either a list put together by one single critic or something from overseas. Like I said, that's why "MG" is so high on the list despite the fact that it does not do well on the "initial popularity" portion of the criteria in relation to the other songs up near the top. Even "Purple Haze" which was not a big hit single in America was the best known song on an album that was a huge commercial success in America. The Who album that featured "MG" did not even make the top 200 album chart in America.

Clash has proven that "MG" has tremendous critical acclaim, but that is not a part of the criteria on this list. It is a part of Brian's criteria on his 70s list, but not part of mine.

Here's the criteria on this list:

Songs listed are from Rock and Roll and related sub-genres. These songs are ranked based upon their intitial and lasting popularity, as well as their influence and impact on the evolution of Rock and Roll and its sub-genres.

"Sunshine Of Your Love" is a pretty influential song that was a top ten single in America and was the biggest song on a gigantic album. The buzz about Cream and that song was unbelievably big when it was current. On the other hand, "MG" meant little in America until later on, maybe the mid-1970s at least.

I can't see making "MG" any higher than it is, and I'd be more likely to drop it below such powerful records as "Be My Baby" or "Dock Of The bay," items that do much better in some parts of the criteria than "MG" does. Certainly a case can be made that "Be My Baby" is more influential and had more impact than "MG." Obviously it had much bigger initial popularity, so that only leaves lasting popularity, and "BMB" has remained pretty fucking popular.

I think Clash should leave well enough alone and be glad that "MG" is as high as it is.

P.S.

I could post all kinds of lists from the past that had "SOYL" on them but not "MG" Lists like some of the WCBS-FM top 500s, and lists from other oldies stations. "MG" was never played on oldies formats in America, as it was not a big hit. "SOYL" on the other hand, was, as well as being played on AOR radio.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Here's the criteria on this list:

Songs listed are from Rock and Roll and related sub-genres. These songs are ranked based upon their intitial and lasting popularity, as well as their influence and impact on the evolution of Rock and Roll and its sub-genres.


"My Generation" does phenomenally well in every part of that criteria. Even in initial impact, since it went to #2 in the UK. It doesn't do particularly well in initial impact in the USA. That's its only weak spot. But you mention "Purple Haze" not charting well as a single in the USA, while the album it's on did chart well, hitting #5 in the USA. "My Generation" is on Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy, which hit #11 in the USA. A live version features prominently on Live at Leeds, which hit #2 in the USA. I semi-live version is the lead-off track on The Kids Are Alright, which hit #8 in the USA. Additionally, they performed the song on The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour in 1967, which was probably its real "initial" (literally explosive) impact in the USA. They probably should have reissued the single in the aftermath of that. They also played "I Can See For Miles" on that show, which sent it into the top ten in the USA. Imagine what "My Generation" could have done.

As for its lasting popularity, VH1 recently did a rock lists show hosted by Meatloaf. Five celebrities picked their top three rock songs of all time. Alice Cooper picked "My Generation". The audience voted from among those fifteen songs for the final three. "My Generation" finished at #3 behind "American Pie" and (I think) "Stairway to Heaven". Meatloaf declared "My Generation" the greatest rock 'n' roll song of all-time and the show closed with Train performing "My Generation". That was just a few years ago.

But, more importantly, "My Generation"'s influence and impact on the evolution of Rock and Roll and its subgenres is beyond massive. When Time did its turn of the millenium issue, they picked "My Generation" as the only rock song to represent the entire decade of the sixties. You say most of my lists were from a sole critic or from overseas. One was from a sole critic. As for the overseas lists, they were all from the UK, first of all. I deliberately avoided adding lists from Spain, France and so on, where "My Generation" did even better than "Sunshine of Your Love" than it does on the USA and UK lists. Secondly, you haven't had a problem bringing up overseas markets yourself in other discussions. The remainder of the lists were Rolling Stone, MTV and VH1. When it comes to music, that's as mainstream American as it gets, and each of those lists was generated by polling mostly rock musicians. The largest poll was Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Song lists, where "My Generation" hit #11 all-time, let alone just for the sixties.

It's your list and you can rank the songs on it the way you think they ought to be ranked according to your criteria, of course. It looks too low, to me. I doubt I'm alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Here's the criteria on this list:

Songs listed are from Rock and Roll and related sub-genres. These songs are ranked based upon their intitial and lasting popularity, as well as their influence and impact on the evolution of Rock and Roll and its sub-genres.


"My Generation" does phenomenally well in every part of that criteria.


It does worse than almost every other record on this list in "initial popularity." The record bombed in BY FAR the biggest market in the world. The single couldn't crack the top 50 and the album did not even make the charts.

ClashWho wrote:
"My Generation" is on Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy, which hit #11 in the USA.


That already counts towards the song's lasting popularity, but many other artists on this list have much bigger greatest hits albums than "Meaty."

ClashWho wrote:
A live version features prominently on Live at Leeds, which hit #2 in the USA. I semi-live version is the lead-off track on The Kids Are Alright, which hit #8 in the USA. Additionally, they performed the song on The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour in 1967, which was probably its real "initial" (literally explosive) impact in the USA. They probably should have reissued the single in the aftermath of that. They also played "I Can See For Miles" on that show, which sent it into the top ten in the USA. Imagine what "My Generation" could have done.


The live version has nothing to do with this list. There are separate lists for live stuff.

ClashWho wrote:
As for its lasting popularity, VH1 recently did a rock lists show hosted by Meatloaf. Five celebrities picked their top three rock songs of all time. Alice Cooper picked "My Generation". The audience voted from among those fifteen songs for the final three. "My Generation" finished at #3 behind "American Pie" and (I think) "Stairway to Heaven". Meatloaf declared "My Generation" the greatest rock 'n' roll song of all-time and the show closed with Train performing "My Generation". That was just a few years ago.


I could care less what famous people like. This lists reflects what the public liked in the 60s and what they like now, not what some musician liked or likes.


ClashWho wrote:
When Time did its turn of the millenium issue, they picked "My Generation" as the only rock song to represent the entire decade of the sixties.


Woop-de-damn-do

Who cares what Time thinks? If that's their choice they are fucking morons. The song has ZERO appeal or recocognition in the black community or with fans of the early 60s who don't like British rock, so how can is POSSIBLY represent the entire decade?

ClashWho wrote:
The largest poll was Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Song lists, where "My Generation" hit #11 all-time, let alone just for the sixties.


READ MY LIPS!!!

I could not care less about which songs musicians like.

The musicians make the songs.

The public decides which ones are the best ones.

Maybe you think that we should only let politicians vote for politicians?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:06 am 
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PS - Unlike Simpson's lists I don't count all parts of the criteria equally. Initial popularity counts more than any other part of the crtiteria, followed closely by lasting popularity. The other stuff is minor.

It's something like...

Initial Popularity - 40%
Lasting popularity - 35%
Influence and impact combined - 25%

So "MG" scores as one of the highest few records on 60% of the criteria, but one of the lowest records on the other 40% of the criteria.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:18 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
When Time did its turn of the millenium issue, they picked "My Generation" as the only rock song to represent the entire decade of the sixties.


That's the problem when journalists pick songs like this. They place far too much emphasis on lyrics and what the song is about rather than on really evaluating which record would best represent the genre.

"Louie Louie" would have been a better choice. Or "Satisfaction." Or "Respect."


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:42 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
When Time did its turn of the millenium issue, they picked "My Generation" as the only rock song to represent the entire decade of the sixties.


That's the problem when journalists pick songs like this. They place far too much emphasis on lyrics and what the song is about rather than on really evaluating which record would best represent the genre.

"Louie Louie" would have been a better choice. Or "Satisfaction." Or "Respect."


"96 Tears" captures the era much better than "My Generation" which didn't really become a classic until the late 70s at least.

When I hear "My Generation" I don't think 1965-1966. I think later on when the record became well known in America. The first time that it broke into the mainstream was on the Meaty album which came out in late 1971. Before that most rock and roll fans in America did not even know that song.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:23 am 
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Away from critics and musicians you get "MG" as the # 63 single of the 1960s on RYM.

http://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/single/1960s


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:32 am 
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I just read a scientific paper by Dr. Ebbett Smith of Stanford University. It's entitled "A BRUCE GLOSSARY".

When the well-meaning forum viewer intends to engage meaningfully with the posts of a poster named Bruce, they may find that upon attempting engagement equipped with the typical dictionary definitions and common usages of the words and phrases Bruce employs, the inevitable reaction will invariably be to immediately and with great violence rip the hair from their heads until severe blood loss occurs. My colleagues and I would like to propose that the viewer only consult the more common dictionary definitions of the words and phrases they are to encounter in Bruce's posts with great trepidation, and instead supplement their attempts at interpretation with our alternative BRUCE GLOSSARY, with which they may render his seemingly nonsensical and profoundly obtuse blatherings into more readily understandable (and thus more quickly rejectable) prose.

So far it's been very helpful! I'll post the alternative definitions as need be. Here's one that helped me to understand some of the posts in this thread.

"most rock and roll fans in America = common substitute/confusion with I (that is, Bruce himself)."

Hope this helps, everybody!


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:09 am 
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Dreww wrote:
I just read a scientific paper by Dr. Ebbett Smith of Stanford University. It's entitled "A BRUCE GLOSSARY".

When the well-meaning forum viewer intends to engage meaningfully with the posts of a poster named Bruce, they may find that upon attempting engagement equipped with the typical dictionary definitions and common usages of the words and phrases Bruce employs, the inevitable reaction will invariably be to immediately and with great violence rip the hair from their heads until severe blood loss occurs. My colleagues and I would like to propose that the viewer only consult the more common dictionary definitions of the words and phrases they are to encounter in Bruce's posts with great trepidation, and instead supplement their attempts at interpretation with our alternative BRUCE GLOSSARY, with which they may render his seemingly nonsensical and profoundly obtuse blatherings into more readily understandable (and thus more quickly rejectable) prose.

So far it's been very helpful! I'll post the alternative definitions as need be. Here's one that helped me to understand some of the posts in this thread.

"most rock and roll fans in America = common substitute/confusion with I (that is, Bruce himself)."

Hope this helps, everybody!


Welcome to the old world.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:14 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
The musicians make the songs.

The public decides which ones are the best ones.


Really? I thought the public decided which ones are the most popular. Is Elton John's "Candle in the Wind 1997" the best song ever recorded? Does McDonald's make the best hamburger?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
"96 Tears" captures the era much better than "My Generation" which didn't really become a classic until the late 70s at least.

When I hear "My Generation" I don't think 1965-1966. I think later on when the record became well known in America. The first time that it broke into the mainstream was on the Meaty album which came out in late 1971. Before that most rock and roll fans in America did not even know that song.


I don't think that's true. The Who performed it on The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour in 1967. I think that is when it broke through to a national audience in the USA. Unfortunately, it was not rereleased to capitalize on that exposure. Instead, they released "I Can See For Miles", which they had also performed on that show. It went Top Ten.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:21 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
PS - Unlike Simpson's lists I don't count all parts of the criteria equally. Initial popularity counts more than any other part of the crtiteria, followed closely by lasting popularity. The other stuff is minor.

It's something like...

Initial Popularity - 40%
Lasting popularity - 35%
Influence and impact combined - 25%

So "MG" scores as one of the highest few records on 60% of the criteria, but one of the lowest records on the other 40% of the criteria.


Well, that explains it.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:02 pm 
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..some chart trivia ... just because it is interesting how well this tune did in a few non English speaking countries..... Take care

France - My Generation

1965-10-16: peak#13 - Total wks in the Top 50 - 18wks My Generation
1966-01-01: peak#14 - Total wks in the Top 50 - 1wk My Generation

Holland

Nov 1965: peak#5 (16 weeks)

Germany

Jan 1966: peak#12 (12 weeks)


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Songs Of The 1960s
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:29 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
The musicians make the songs.

The public decides which ones are the best ones.


Really? I thought the public decided which ones are the most popular. Is Elton John's "Candle in the Wind 1997" the best song ever recorded? Does McDonald's make the best hamburger?


There's more to the public's decisions than merely saying the most popular ones are the best ones, but either way, the pubice decides.

We don't ask Burger King, McDonalds and Wendy's to decide who makes the best burgers, the public decides that.

As for "Candle In The Wind," I'd much rather own the publishing rights on that song than to own the publishing rights on "My Generation."


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