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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:55 pm 
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Yah I agree, Clash.
I personally love that era of music, but it's laughable how the pre-Beatles artists get so fucked over all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
So now we're talking about influences rather than music? Well, so much for trying.

Have you read the sticky at the top of this forum? It explains these ideas in more detail, which might help to clarify.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:52 pm 
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Location: Matthew McConaughey has won the Oscar for Best Actor in-- "You think you know me..." Shit.
Read it on the old forum, and it was the start of my argument.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
So now we're talking about influences rather than music? Well, so much for trying.

Don't you think it would be really difficult for an artist to make rock music without having any rock music influences? Or in other words: The influences determine the music itself. An artist whose influence is not primarily grounded in rock music is not a rock artist.

EDIT: And I agree with what Clash said.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:41 pm 
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I guess that could work. We just need to round up every artist and find who their influences are.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:51 am 
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Sherick wrote:
I guess that could work. We just need to round up every artist and find who their influences are.


Now you're just being pedantic.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Location: Matthew McConaughey has won the Oscar for Best Actor in-- "You think you know me..." Shit.
How else do you presume to measure it, Lord Thistlewick?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:18 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
Georgi wrote:
Great post, Paul.

Thanks!

gminer wrote:
..within another genre/style one can draw a straight line from Wagner and a number of classical composers directly to heavy metal/metal .... Take care

About time they induct Wagner into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an early influence.


...hence the bombastic and operatic Sturm und Drang of Wagnerian proportions found in many a heavy metal/metal band ... Take care


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
I guess that could work. We just need to round up every artist and find who their influences are.

One would start by looking at rock in general, see which genres evolved primarily from rock, and if an artist falls squarely within that genre, it's a rock artist. So for most artists, you wouldn't have to do much analysis.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:53 am 
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It's not just because this is my favorite song of all time, but I think there is plenty of room to fit In My Life on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:45 am 
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i actually see (and somewhat maybe will someday agree with) the argument that rap has become its own genre. NOT for the straw-man reasons that have been attributed to that side over time: "so and so doesn't like rap therefore he thinks it shouldn't be included" or "so and so doesn't know the history and doesn't understand the evolution".

i say it because rap was, at this point in history, the biggest jump musically/artistically/culturally from its immediate predecessor. its TRUE that its probably not any further away from rock n roll than metal or grunge or whatever. that's NOT what i'm saying. what i'm saying is that the evolution of "guitar driven hard/alt rock" had smaller steps. a lot more steps, but smaller steps. so that you can directly trace a rock 'n roll> holly> british invasion> mod> proto-punk> punk> new wave> alt rock> grunge> post grunge... or rock 'n roll> James Brown> heavier funk> disco> 80s pop... or rock 'n' roll> stones> heavy british blues> heavy metal > new wave of british heavy metal > thrash metal... you get what i'm saying? the evolution is fluid, you can find transition artists, its all blurry and its all done in little steps.

rap is a more distinct shift. its only later that it got blurry as hard rock borrowed from it (much like jazz rock fusion or blues rock did). its origins lie in obvious rock styles like funk, soul, and especially disco. but its most immediate influences are actually probably dub and spoken-word.

and its in these influences that the real dividers enters the equation: the shift from vocals (probably overall the most important instrument in popular music) as a melodic instrument to a rhythmic instrument, borrowed from Jamaican toasting and from spoken-word artists like The Last Poets. the remixing and manipulation of recorded tracks, specifically the breaks, to create a looped foundation to rap over. and while they were using disco and funk songs to grab those beats, the origins of that come mainly from dub.

these were major leaps that happened pretty quickly and come from sources outside rock n roll.

im NOT saying i agree at the moment that rap shouldn't be included. it should. and as long as it is, i'll argue for correct positions of those artists as i always have. what i AM saying is that as rap grows, i think we might retro-actively point to the break as a shift to a new genre, much like rock 'n roll became a new genre as it grew instead of being considered a subgenre of blues in the boogie-woogie/jump blues evolutionary tree.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:12 am 
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That's what I used to argue back in my rap-is-not-rock days. Don't make me revert back to that.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:31 am 
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Maybe twenty years from now, we can look back and say that rap was definitely a new genre, but right now, I believe there are only 7 main genres of music: Classical; Gospel; Jazz; Blues; Country; Pop; Rock. I know someone who says Latin is its own genre (a music teacher at our school), but I dunno.

Anyway, back to the list. Do you think "Stairway" could drop out of the top spot? Maybe replace DitL with Hey Jude? Can Imagine be top 10?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:47 am 
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then what would contemporary fall under?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:59 pm 
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pave wrote:
so that you can directly trace a rock 'n roll> holly> british invasion> mod> proto-punk> punk> new wave> alt rock> grunge> post grunge... or rock 'n roll> James Brown> heavier funk> disco> 80s pop... or rock 'n' roll> stones> heavy british blues> heavy metal > new wave of british heavy metal > thrash metal...

pave wrote:
and while they were using disco and funk songs to grab those beats, the origins of that come mainly from dub.

these were major leaps that happened pretty quickly and come from sources outside rock n roll.

How's that: early r&b (earliest form of rock 'n roll)> ska> rocksteady> reggae> dub
I know calypso was an important early influence on reggae too. I'm just sayin'...


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