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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:42 pm 
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The Man wrote:
Moreover, I don't think that Dylan's cultural impact lies as much in his individual songs as in Dylan himself. He easily outdoes the Beach Boys as a cultural figure; aside from The Beatles, he was the only rock artist included in the Time 100 most influential people of the 21st century.


But not as a rock artist. It was as a folk artist. Which results in an interesting point. If Bob Dylan's pre-rock folk releases do not count towards his popularity, then songs such as "Blowing in the Wind" and "The Times They Are A'Changin'" should not count towards his cultural impact.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Nah, Dylan's impact and iconography is definitely primarillaly as a rock artist, his folk music is only a small part (about 10% of his overall impact, I reckon). The iconic image of him is always the one of him in his electric period with his sunglasses, boots and long brown coat as opposed to the puppyfat young upstart. I think most people recognise now that Dylan just used folk music to get credibility than anything.

And Clash would you not count Like A Rolling Stone changing what music radio would play or Subterranean Homesick Blues having the first ever musical promo video as cultural impact? I must admit I have trouble seeing what the difference between influence, musical impact and cultural impact is. I thought influence wasw simply how many artists they influenced, but I'm sure Brian mentioned it was more to with successful innovation, which I always thought was musical impact so whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:58 pm 
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Avery_Island wrote:
ariel - Beach Boys ahead of Dylan on musical impact?! Really?!

Dylan invented the modern singer/songwriter and modern folk rock and laid down the foundations of punk and alternative music. Revolutionised the way lyrics were used in popular music, changed the way music was recorded and sold (changed how long singles could be, made the first Double album, popularised singles being on albums as opposed to being sold separately and invented the music video).

The Beach Boys don't even come close to Dylan on musical impact.


Musical impact is just esteem among fellow musicians. You appear to be thinking of musical influence.

Bob Dylan laid down the foundations of punk? Huh?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Yeah, Highway 61 Revisited is generally regarded as being the first garage rock album, obviously it didn't have the same influence on punk that The Velvet Underground & Nico or The Ramones s/t did, but it definitely laid down the energy, song structure and schadenfreude and anger in the lyrics - Just listen to somethign like "Tombstone Blues".

"He laid down the template for lyric, tune, seriousness, spirtuality, depth of rock music. Without Bob Dylan I don't think the form would be regarded. He invented the whole field we all work in." - Joe Strummer


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Avery_Island wrote:
Nah, Dylan's impact and iconography is definitely primarillaly as a rock artist, his folk music is only a small part (about 10% of his overall impact, I reckon).


I'm saying that Dylan made it into Time magazine's century issue for his folk years. The representatives for rock were the Beatles. Elvis Presley got a one-page consolation prize as runner-up. Additionally, Time magazine selected one rock song for each decade. They were "Roll Over, Beethoven", "My Generation", "Stayin' Alive", "Material Girl" and "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

Avery_Island wrote:
And Clash would you not count Like A Rolling Stone changing what music radio would play or Subterranean Homesick Blues having the first ever musical promo video as cultural impact?


First ever musical promo video? Where and when did it air? "Like a Rolling Stone" changed what radio would play? I guess a little bit. The three-minute single still ruled, however.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:03 pm 
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Avery_Island wrote:
Yeah, Highway 61 Revisited is generally regarded as being the first garage rock album


That's news to me. Which means it's probably not true. The garage rock bands that pre-date Highway 61 Revisited are legion.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:58 am 
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Clah, mate, I think you're being deliberately ingenuous in saying it changed it "I guess a little bit," it's well documented that LARS completely made radio stations change what they play. Yes, the minute single is still king now, because that's the length most singles run at down to the artists themselves. Fair enough, if there were other garage rock albums before H61 just something I've read before, which could have been wrong.

And can you link that Time article, then? I find it very hard to believe he was named for his achievements as a folksinger only, given that he was not the most important or loved folk singer of the 20th century and that it makes up such a small portion of his overall acclaim and career, nowhere near enough to rank him among the musical greats.

The Subterranean Homesick Blues video was shown at the beginning of Don't Look Back to promote the single, so I assume it was shown at the cinema.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:14 am 
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... one of the more interesting moments in the 60`s was the decision Dylan made to go electric and become part of the evolving rock music movement that was exploding all around the acoustic folk community .... many in the folk community were appalled he was heading in that direction and for a time turned their backs on him for his so called "sellout" to commercial music including the employment of the "electric" group The Band .... Take care


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:38 am 
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I think that The Beatles had a lot to do with that decision.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:45 am 
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Works both ways though, Dylan had a lot to do with the Beatles changing their sound to more experimental ideas too.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:46 am 
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Avery_Island wrote:
Works both ways though, Dylan had a lot to do with the Beatles changing their sound to more experimental ideas too.


100% true.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:20 pm 
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The criteria is listed as "Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The 60's are based equally on Musical and Commercial Impact, Influence and Importance of their Recorded Work from 1960-1969 only", which surprises me because I thought that the criteria for this list was influence plus the 3 impacts: commercial, musical, and cultural. I could have sworn it was. This is one of Sampson's lists, and I thought that that criteria, which is also used on other rock artists lists, came from him, that he used that criteria. But it appears that Importance of their Recorded Work has replaced cultural impact in the criteria. I don't mind dropping cultural impact as a criteria - I think it's too subjective - but I don't know what would be counted as "Importance of their Recorded Work" that isn't already counted under commercial impact, musical impact, or influence. So the new criteria seems redundant.

Based on the 3 holdover criteria, here's how I think the Beach Boys/Stones/Dylan comparison breaks down. In commercial impact, it's too clsoe for me to call between the Beach Boys and the Stones, and both beat Dylan fairly easily. In musical impact, Dylan is comfortably ahead of both, and I'd say the Stones have slight edge on the Beach Boys. In influence, the Beach Boys beat the Stones, and Dylan beats both of them. So for me the easiest comparison is Stones v. Beach Boys. The Beach Boys advantage in influence is big enough to more than make up for any small advantage the Stones might have elsewhere. I'd probably put Dylan ahead of the Stones too. I'd say his big advantage in influence plus his modest musical impact edge are probably enough to top the Stones comfortable popularity advantage. Beach Boys v. Dylan is tough. Dylan wins 2 criteria and the Beach Boys win one, but the Beach Boys probably win theirs by a bigger margin than Dylan wins either of his.

To clarify what I said influence is, it's generally either innovation that is followed by others, or popularization of another artist's innovation.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:57 pm 
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IMO, Dylan vs RS vs BB goes like this:

1. Dylan
2. The Rolling Stones
3. The Beach Boys

The influence of the Rolling Stones in today´s music is so much bigger than the Beach Boys´.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:09 pm 
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.... all charts combines the Top 50 album artists in the US for the 60`s .... Take care

1 Frank Sinatra
2 Johnny Mathis
3 Herb Alpert
4 The Kingston Trio
5 The Beatles
6 Mitch Miller
7 Andy Williams
8 Elvis Presley
9 Ray Charles
10 Barbra Streisand
11 Bill Cosby
12 Peter, Paul And Mary
13 Henry Mancini
14 The Supremes
15 The Beach Boys
16 Joan Baez
17 The Temptations
18 The Rolling Stones
19 Ray Conniff
20 Mantovani
21 The Ventures
22 Nancy Wilson
23 Dean Martin
24 Nat "King" Cole
25 Lawrence Welk
26 Al Hirt
27 The Lettermen
28 Billy Vaughn
29 Chubby Checker
30 Simon And Garfunkel
31 Tony Bennett
32 Harry Belafonte
33 Glen Campbell
34 Bob Dylan
35 The Monkees
36 Al Martino
37 Jimmy Smith
38 The Four Seasons
39 Roger Williams
40 The Mamas & The Papas
41 Rusty Warren
42 James Brown
43 Connie Francis
44 Robert Goulet
45 Dionne Warwick
46 Aretha Franklin
47 Herman's Hermits
48 Trini Lopez
49 Johnny Cash
50 The New Christy Minstrels


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artists of The '60s
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Hello gminer:

I have written 2 posts to you but both have been deleted by YB. I just want to ask you: where is your live guitar album list? I think it is a great list and it should be added to the new DDD.


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