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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:30 pm 
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pave wrote:
acclaimedmusic.net ranking for Tool is 175.

the only artists below them are...

13. Usher (200)
27. T.I. (178)
28. Destiny's Child (180)
30. Lil Wayne (186)
36. Lady Gaga (only because it hasnt been updated to show 2009)
38. Kelly Clarkson (179)
40. Gwen Stefani (183)
41. Mary J. Blige
43. Red Hot Chili Peppers (196)
47. The Black Eyed Peas
49. Nickelback
63. Ludacris
64. Linkin Park
65. 'NSYNC
66. Christina Aguilera
67. Mariah Carey
68. Creed
69. Pink
72. 3 Doors Down
73. Avril Lavigne
74. Kid Rock
92. John Mayer
95. Fergie
99. Dave Matthews Band

unless Tool is more popular or has more cultural impact, what exactly is propelling them above any of these artists?
This isn't so much a comment on Tool but on a few of the artists in this group in general. Can you explain to me why Nickelback, Creed, and 3 Doors Down are in the top 100? I don't see anything these groups have going for them on this list other than popularity.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:31 pm 
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pave wrote:
yeah, so would several other people. but i figured i'd give them a ton of credit there since that seems to be their one major strength. Timberlake would beat them too... although oddly enough, his 4x platinum debut (in the US... 10 million sold worldwide) only hit #2 in the US (number 1 in UK). while Tool's 2x platinum Lateralus hit #1.

which is why peak billboard position = pretty much nothing if you look at overall sales instead.
I still think billboard peak positions need to be taken into account to some extent when gauging popularity on this list because some labels don't update their sales records to the RIAA all that often and the fact that record sales haven't been good in the past ten years at all due to downloading.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Rob wrote:
pave wrote:
acclaimedmusic.net ranking for Tool is 175.

the only artists below them are...

49. Nickelback
68. Creed
72. 3 Doors Down

This isn't so much a comment on Tool but on a few of the artists in this group in general. Can you explain to me why Nickelback, Creed, and 3 Doors Down are in the top 100? I don't see anything these groups have going for them on this list other than popularity.


edit: Creed's gonna get dropped because as i was researching this, i realized the end of the decade Billboard charts were counting Human Clay (99) in their figures.

sure, but its massive popularity. when Billboard released their artists of the decade based on album and singles success, Nickelback was 7th. the other top 10 artists: Eminem, Usher, Nelly, Beyonce, Alicia Keys, 50 Cent, Britney Spears, Destiny's Child, Jay Z. the next ten were Mariah, Black Eyed Peas, Pink, Kelly Clarkson, Kanye, Ludacris, Rihanna, Creed, Linkin Park, Christina. 3 Doors Down were 30th.

Nickelback also had the 4th biggest single of the decade. 3 Doors Down show up at 43. Creed at 46. the few artists with top 50 singles that aren't here were one hit wonders. Creed shows up at 5 and 22 on the highest selling albums list. Nickelback at 13, 47, 157 and 191. 3 Doors Down at 46 and 110 (not counting their next two albums which both went to number 1).

they are basically the 3 biggest acts in post-grunge. without them on the list, the list wouldn't show post-grunge at all, and its pretty much what is carrying "modern rock format" radio right now. that and nu-metal.

i gave the artists with musical impact and nothing else the benefit of the doubt and most of them are higher on this list. so why not give those with massive commercial impact some benefit of the doubt too? there are not 100 artists that score high in every aspect, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:47 pm 
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I agree, pave. Sometimes an artist can do so well in a single criterion that that alone can give them a top 100 spot.

On considering sales v. peak chart positions, it's ideal to consider both. And if the peak chart position is considered than so should be weeks on the chart, or weeks in the top 40, or both. An album with a not very high peak but lots of weeks on the chart will sometimes outsell one with a high chart peak and not very many weeks on the chart.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:59 pm 
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:roll: What a shit way to run a list.....
AH well, does its job i guess.
Tool are infinite more popular than you're giving credit for. This list cannot account for it, but how many of these millions of albums sold by terrible, terrible artsits... end up sold second hand, broken, only had two tracks listened to etc.... Vs millions of (albeit, idiots) kids lionizing every single second of these Tool releases... How bout their touring popularity? How about how they've only released two albums in 15 years and both still debuted at No. 1?
As i said, you can't really make a criteria that leaves room for it, but a good deal of the artists you name are NOT as popular as Tool and have NOT had the cultural impact.
Just because they aren't on wheaties boxes and have a hundred videos on MTV doesn't mean their cultural impact is dwarfed.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:02 pm 
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50. System of a Down
51. The Shins
52. The Streets
53. Dizzee Rascal
54. The Libertines
55. Arctic Monkeys
56. Interpol
57. Spoon
58. The Flaming Lips
59. Sigur Ros
60. Animal Collective
61. The Roots
62. PJ Harvey
63. Ludacris
64. Linkin Park
65. 'NSYNC
66. Christina Aguilera
67. Mariah Carey
68. Creed
69. Pink
70. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
71. Bob Dylan
72. 3 Doors Down
73. Avril Lavigne
74. Kid Rock
75. Muse
76. Kings of Leon
77. Hot Chip
78. Bruce Springsteen
79. Johnny Cash
80. Portishead
81. Common
82. Tom Waits
83. Ghostface Killah
84. Super Furry Animals
85. Sleater-Kinney
86. Cat Power
87. The National
88. Joanna Newsom
89. Ryan Adams
90. Scissor Sisters
91. Beck
92. John Mayer
93. Bright Eyes
94. The New Pornographers
95. Fergie
96. Fleet Foxes
97. Madvillain
98. N.E.R.D.
99. Dave Matthews Band
100. My Morning Jacket

Much more important than these artists, for a start. And chyeah... Muse should totally be that low.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:29 pm 
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pave wrote:
1. my response was jokingly, no worry.

2. your initial question seemed loaded, my bad.


:cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:43 pm 
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if you can find the touring numbers, i'd be glad to see them. but i'm willing to bet at least 3 Doors Down probably dwarfs Tool there too.

what you are saying is all speculation (like what i did in the first sentence here). and its all perspective. part of the problem is most of the people you hang out with a know probably do think these bands suck, but the reality is they have a much bigger fanbase. 3 Doors Down owns the midwest, particularly men over 30. these people have never heard of Lil Wayne any more than certain groups care about Slipknot or certain groups care about Tool or certain groups care about Muse.

personal perspective is warped by the fact that the music world is splintered because of radio formats and the internet. you can listen to music every day of your life and not even hear the number 1 hit on the radio these days.

the only thing i can do for this list as far as popularity goes is figure out which of these fanbases is the biggest. record sales, singles sales, airplay, touring numbers, internet sites, etc.

Tool is decently popular. and their fanbase obviously cares, since both of their albums as you point out went straight to number 1. but by the same token, so did 3 Doors Down's last two albums. and their first two albums, without going to number 1, outsold all of Tool's albums (let alone just the two released this decade). not to mention their 9 charting singles to 3 for Tool.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:48 pm 
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Pave,

Could you explain a bit about the position of QOTSA?

I have a fw iof their records, but to me based on my observations of music this decade they do not stand up to a near top 20 position.

Only one of their songs gets occasional radioplay over here and they are not very well known in my neck of the woods compared to many of those below them.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Jestercide wrote:
80. Portishead
84. Super Furry Animals
86. Cat Power
89. Ryan Adams
95. Fergie
98. N.E.R.D.
100. My Morning Jacket


as far as critical acclaim goes:

acclaimedmusic.net rankings
67 Portishead
139 Super Furry Animals
44 Cat Power
39 Ryan Adams
-- Fergie
118 N.E.R.D.
66 My Morning Jacket
175 Tool

the only one who doesnt dwarf Tool in acclaim is Fergie, whose 1 album (3.8 mil) nearly outsold both of Tool's combined (4.3 mil). and her singles success more than makes up for that difference anyway. 5 top 10 singles (over 8 million sold in the US), 3 of which hit number 1, plus as a featured artist was on 5 more charting singles. Tool had 3 charting singles, none in the top 50.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:22 pm 
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Jestercide wrote:
a good deal of the artists you name are NOT as popular as Tool and have NOT had the cultural impact.
Just because they aren't on wheaties boxes and have a hundred videos on MTV doesn't mean their cultural impact is dwarfed.


please explain their cultural impact. i see virtually none.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Jose wrote:
Pave,

Could you explain a bit about the position of QOTSA?

I have a fw iof their records, but to me based on my observations of music this decade they do not stand up to a near top 20 position.

Only one of their songs gets occasional radioplay over here and they are not very well known in my neck of the woods compared to many of those below them.


generally the list goes like this:
first tier: artists with very high or high marks in acclaim, popularity, and cultural impact
second tier: artists with high marks in acclaim and decent in other areas
third tier: artists with high marks in popularity and decent in other areas
fourth tier: artists with very high marks in acclaim and very little in other areas
fifth tier: artists with very high marks in popularity and very little other areas

QOTSA fall into that second tier. they ranked 20th on the acclaimedmusic list, while also having four gold records and 8 charting singles in the UK or US.

but i could see them dropping maybe. who below them did you think should be above them?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:33 pm 
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on the Tool thing... for the record, i'm not against changing the list quite a bit. it needs it. i just can't do much with blanket statements and no actual support.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:37 pm 
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Brian wrote:
I agree, pave. Sometimes an artist can do so well in a single criterion that that alone can give them a top 100 spot.

On considering sales v. peak chart positions, it's ideal to consider both. And if the peak chart position is considered than so should be weeks on the chart, or weeks in the top 40, or both. An album with a not very high peak but lots of weeks on the chart will sometimes outsell one with a high chart peak and not very many weeks on the chart.


i dont see why. why does peak position even matter if we have the complete sales to look at? peak position is relative. different times of the year have better sales.

imagine the 00s movie list treating a March number 1 movie the same as it treated Lord of the Rings or Pirates of the Caribbean just because it peaked at the same number. we don't do that. we look at total grosses. having a number 1 album that sales a million copies is not as good as an album that sold 7 million but peaked at 3 or 4.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists Of The 2000's
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:41 pm 
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also, this list is slightly different than the other decade lists for one major reason. we can't really gauge influence at this point or lasting popularity/musical impact. and cultural impact is becoming less and less a factor as the culture becomes more and more de-centralized. there are very few artists who have had major cultural impact- Eminem, Britney to a major extent. Kanye, Beyonce, and a few others to a lesser extent.

but there aren't 100 artists who have had a major cultural impact.

which is why this list is based mostly on commercial success and critical acclaim. as time moves forward we can better judge the other parts of the criteria. but right now, thats just silly.


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