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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:49 am 
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Johnny wrote:
^ That's true. I know a lot of people who play instruments and are in bands and stuff. I've never heard anyone say they are directly influenced by Fats or that they were inspired by him to make music. But I lost count of how many guitar players have said things like that about Hendrix (or how many kids up picked up a guitar for the first time after listening to hendrix) and I'm sure most of you also have heard that. It's not an easy thing do determine or quantify, but it's a thing.


I agree that hendrix is a much bigger name than Fats Domino now. Fats' music is a bit old fashioned for today's under 40 crowd.

That's one reason why Hendrix is considerably higher on my "300 Greatest Popular Music Artists" list here on the site.

http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

39. Jimi Hendrix
40. Billy Murray and the American Quartet
41. Barbra Streisand
42. Jimmie Rodgers
43. Robert Johnson
44. Sam Cooke
45. Bruce Springsteen
46. Queen
47. Abba
48. Pink Floyd
49. Buddy Holly and the Crickets
50. Elton John
51. Temptations
52. Drifters / Clyde McPhatter / Ben E. King
53. Prince
54. The Who
55. Tony Bennett
56. Diana Ross and the Supremes
57. Fats Domino


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:53 am 
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pave wrote:
Sampson wrote:
When writing the bio a few years back for Fats on this site the total Domino record sales as reported to the RIAA had been updated to 110 million.

The problem I have with figuring lasting popularity remains its inaccuracies. Someone like Domino, who came of age in the singles era, is naturally going to not sell as much longterm as an album era artist of fairly equal stature for the simple reason that the singles artist will invariably have his best songs leased to countless multi-artist anthologies, for which he gets absolutely no official credit. How many millions of people own Blueberry Hill, Ain't That A Shame, I'm Walkin, etc., and paid money for those songs, yet none of them count towards his popularity because other artists were packaged with them? Secondly, you can buy 25 Domino singles on a Greatest Hits package, getting the cream of the crop over his entire career, and that accounts for just one sale. By comparison in order to hear Hendrix as he was originally appreciated - with full length albums - you need to buy three or four of them, giving him multiple sales.

It's neither one's fault, just a reflection on the era in which they came of age, but again it will favor one era or style over another and that taints the results.

Another question is, why does "lasting popularity" mean after their career has ground to a halt? Domino's success as a CURRENT artist lasted fourteen solid years, whereas Hendrix lasted four. That's a huge difference. Granted Jimi died, but I think it is far harder to sustain the level of interest with consistently new audiences over time such as Fats did than it is to have a brief flurry of acclaim such as Hendrix and just have that endlessly recycled. He never faced the inevitable artistic decline, changing tastes and loss of interest that would ultimately cost someone in longterm popularity. He's always viewed at his peak because that peak was so short. This is actually true of almost all tragic rock figures, but while again it's not their fault per say, it taints the way we see longterm popularity. That said, it is impressive what Hendrix has done after his death, the way he's remained a fixture in rock histories, so that should get some credit, but I'm not a fan of removing all context from the circumstances, which seems to happen all too often.


i know its difficult to quantify and that observation and what "seems true" isn't something we usually encourage with a list like this. but i can't help simply looking around at my peers, seeing the Hendrix t-shirts, the posters, the magazines with Hendrix covers 40 years after he died, etc. i've never once met someone my age (outside of talking to people on the internet, who obviously went the extra mile to learn music history) who was a big Fats Domino fan. in fact, ive never heard his name even mentioned by someone my age (again, except for discussions on the internet). i don't say this to diminish his legacy, but simply to say that there has to be a way to quantify this. this isn't a case of random occurrences. this is a highly noticeable trend among my generation (both genders and all races). doesn't this matter? isn't this part of "lasting popularity"? being able to transcend generations? even if there isn't a way to mathematical measure it, can't we use some level of observation to see this? the "icon" of Hendrix dwarfs Fats Domino in today's pop culture, and its not even close. this can't be ignored, right?


... there are very few artists of the Hendrix era that average over one million albums sales every year ... and just in the US alone do approximately 800,000 - 1,000,000 annual downloads of their songs ... Hendrix has a 40 plus year global appeal in rock music charts/sales/radio play etc that is only found with artists of that era like the Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and that trend /appeal is found in every country that records this type of information ...and even though there have been many artists who have been tragic figures in rock, Hendrix has a staying power beyond most of those tragic figure ... I suspect it must have something to do with the music .... Take care


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:22 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bob Dylan is probably third all-time in musical impact, and there's an argument to be made that he's #2 all-time.


There's no way he tops Elvis and you should know that.
Looking at it objectively, Presley destroys him in some parts of the criteria (commercial impact, cultural impact), and beats him comfortably in the others (influence and musical impact).
Honestly I dont see Dylan winning any part of the criteria. None.

ClashWho wrote:
Dylan's influence? Massive. He made the music grow up. Not The Beatles. They followed Dylan.


How's that?
"Rubber Soul" and "Bringing It All Back Home" were both released in the same year.
I really don't see either one of them "following" the other, tbh...

ClashWho wrote:
Bob Dylan not in the Top Ten is indefensible.


Absolutley. Hell I still say having him out of the top FIVE is indefensible. He scores very high in every part of the criteria, just not quite on par with the untouchable Beatles/Presley/Brown trio.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:23 am 
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pave wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
pave wrote:
i have to say though, i'm so glad this is the conversation that is taking place. i've been wanting this for 4 years.


Check out your 'Greatest Lyrical Performances' list.


i dont know how many times i can look at that thread without repeating that the list was made entirely by a 16 year old pave simply choosing like 10-15 of his favorite lyrics by the same 15-20 songwriters and randomly ordering it. i have nothing to do with it anymore. whoever wants it can have it. but "editing" it shouldn't even be a concern. its not a foundation for which to edit. it needs to be completely scrapped and restarted. its so bad there are songs in the top 20 that don't belong on the list at all. i'd be willing to bet there are songs on there that weren't even written by the artist listed. i can't stress enough how little research i put in to that list. i was a freshman in high school for god's sakes. i just went through a lyrics website and started reading Neil, Dylan, Townshend, Waters, Davies, Springsteen, Simon, and Strummer and then through in some random 90s grunge guys and then sprinkled in a few suggestions from whoever was around at the time. :nono:


:lol: I know, man, I'm just messin' with ya.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:21 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Bob Dylan is probably third all-time in musical impact, and there's an argument to be made that he's #2 all-time.


There's no way he tops Elvis and you should know that.


I'm not sure. Elvis released a lot of cheesy material that's derided. And then there's the whole "Elvis stole our music" thing. Bob Dylan seems much more universally admired and respected among musicians, to me.

Negative Creep wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Dylan's influence? Massive. He made the music grow up. Not The Beatles. They followed Dylan.


How's that?
"Rubber Soul" and "Bringing It All Back Home" were both released in the same year.


The story is that The Beatles' subject matter changed after Bob Dylan told them that they had "Nothing to say."


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:33 am 
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Sampson wrote:
Someone like Domino, who came of age in the singles era, is naturally going to not sell as much longterm as an album era artist of fairly equal stature for the simple reason that the singles artist will invariably have his best songs leased to countless multi-artist anthologies, for which he gets absolutely no official credit.


Time-Life '60s Music Revolution

Yeah, that's Bob Dylan, Carlos Santana, Jimi Hendrix and Roger Daltrey on the cover.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:47 am 
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Quote:
I'm not sure. Elvis released a lot of cheesy material that's derided.


I agree but that's irrelevent. And Sampson once pointed out, even in Presley's worst artistic period (62-67), his popularity was still off the charts.

Quote:
And then there's the whole "Elvis stole our music" thing.


Oh God you're not seriously gonna dredge up this overstated horseshit are you?
The only people who accuse Elvis of "stealing black music" are bitter obssessives who know nothing about the man. There were a ton of blacks who had tremendous respect for Elvis because they recognized his sincere passion for their music. You want to know how many black ARTISTS in the music world have talked about Elvis with glowing admiration? Here's just the tip of the iceberg:
Isaac Hayes, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, B.B. King, James Brown, Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Chuck D, Ivory Joe Hunter, Al Green...
In the case of Chuck D, he eventually went on to say that he was wrong about calling Elvis a "racist" and downplaying his legacy. He even went on to say that he thought Elvis was "an inventive genius".

Quote:
Bob Dylan seems much more universally admired and respected among musicians, to me.


Bob's up there with him, but when it comes to overall praise and acclaim (stretching beyond rock music), nobody has, or ever will, top the king.
The Beatles are dangerously close though.

Quote:
The story is that The Beatles' subject matter changed after Bob Dylan told them that they had "Nothing to say."


Not sure if I buy that. The Beatles had plenty "to say" even before they got to Rubber Soul.
"Yesterday"? Come on.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:53 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
when it comes to overall praise and acclaim (stretching beyond rock music), nobody has, or ever will, top the king.
The Beatles are dangerously close though.



I think the Beatles kill Elvis here, and it's NOT close at all. Guys like Henry Mancini and Arthur Fiedler were recording Beatles songs, not Elvis songs.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:58 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
The story is that The Beatles' subject matter changed after Bob Dylan told them that they had "Nothing to say."


Musicians should not have anything to say. Why would we care what they think?

Just play and sing and entertain us. Leave the social commentary to people out there who are much smarter than you are.




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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:07 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
I'm not sure. Elvis released a lot of cheesy material that's derided.


I agree but that's irrelevent.


Of course it's relevant.

Negative Creep wrote:
And Sampson once pointed out, even in Presley's worst artistic period (62-67), his popularity was still off the charts.


We're talking about musical impact.

Negative Creep wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
And then there's the whole "Elvis stole our music" thing.


Oh God you're not seriously gonna dredge up this overstated horseshit are you?


Yes. It's a mentality that exists, fair or not.

Negative Creep wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
The story is that The Beatles' subject matter changed after Bob Dylan told them that they had "Nothing to say."


Not sure if I buy that. The Beatles had plenty "to say" even before they got to Rubber Soul.
"Yesterday"? Come on.


"Yesterday" is the same time-frame.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:03 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
when it comes to overall praise and acclaim (stretching beyond rock music), nobody has, or ever will, top the king.
The Beatles are dangerously close though.



I think the Beatles kill Elvis here, and it's NOT close at all. Guys like Henry Mancini and Arthur Fiedler were recording Beatles songs, not Elvis songs.


Not close at all? Are you living on the same planet as the rest of us?
But the proof is there, you just have to do the research. Elvis has immense praise ranging from a huge variety of sources: hard rock/metal, blues, soul, opera, gospel, country, folk, prog rock, pop, alternative, jazz, hip hop....not to mention people like record producers, music professors, and voice coaches.
His musical impact is out of this planet.


Last edited by Negative Creep on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:18 am 
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Quote:
Of course it's relevant.


Well, even though many people dont care much for his "Hollywood" phase (including myself), it's not like they use that as a detriment to his ENTIRE CAREER.
He's still regarded by many people as:
-The greatest rock icon and entertainer in the history of the genre.
-The one who made rock music a much more widespread, marketable phenomenon
-One of the greatest vocalists of all time
-The one who gave rock it's bad-boy image, which would be endlessly copied from then on
-One of the very first controversial rock superstars

I just don't think having a few bad years in the 60's is enough to take away from all of that.

Quote:
We're talking about musical impact.


Oh. Well, see my above post.

Quote:
Yes. It's a mentality that exists, fair or not.


It doesn't really exist that much AMONG OTHER ARTISTS. Mary J. Blige is the only one I've heard who has made any kind of derogatory reference to Presley (calling him a "racist" or something... :roll: ).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:38 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
when it comes to overall praise and acclaim (stretching beyond rock music), nobody has, or ever will, top the king.
The Beatles are dangerously close though.



I think the Beatles kill Elvis here, and it's NOT close at all. Guys like Henry Mancini and Arthur Fiedler were recording Beatles songs, not Elvis songs.


Not close at all? Are you living on the same planet as the rest of us?
But the proof is there, you just have to do the research. Elvis was greatly praised by artists from nearly EVERY genre and subgenre that you could think of: hard rock/metal, blues, soul, opera, gospel, country, folk, prog rock, the list goes on. Whether it was for his voice, his performing, or his overall music, the praise is all there.

And that happens to The Beatles even more, i think. They are probably the only rock musicians that I have ever heard someone compare to Mozart or Beethoven in "music genius" levels. And not like any random person compared them to Mozart, but music academics or like classic serious musicians. The only thing similar I've ever heard are those who praise Freddy Mercury's voice and that he could have sung from opera to punk without a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:41 am 
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Who ever compared the Beatles to Mozart or Beethoven?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Who ever compared the Beatles to Mozart or Beethoven?


http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/75148.html

http://musicouch.com/genres/classical/a ... e-beatles/

http://www.calphil.org/events/264/


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