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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:25 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
Trust me...If The Beatles were not "culturally" different (hairstyles, clothing, etc) than the prevailing artists and groups of that time...they would never have become the musical icons they became.


Sorry Stu, I don't trust you here. It was the different sound of their music as compared to the prevailing artists that made them big.......not their haircuts.

As compared top the shit on the radio at the time, the Beatles music was incredibly exciting.

Here's the WABC chart from the week before "I want To Hold Your Hand" debuted:

Weelk of Dec 24, 1963.

TW LW
1. Louie Louie - The Kingsmen (Wand) *2 weeks #1* 1
2. Dominique - The Singing Nun (Philips) 2
3. There! I've Said It Again - Bobby Vinton (Epic) 3
4. Since I Fell For You - Lenny Welch (Cadence) 7
5. Wives and Lovers - Jack Jones (Kapp) 11
6. Forget Him - Bobby Rydell (Cameo) 9
7. I'm Leaving It Up to You - Dale & Grace (Montel-M) 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------
*8. I Have a Boyfriend - The Chiffons (Laurie) 10
*9. Popsicles and Icicles - The Murmaids (Chattahoochee) 6
10. Have You Heard - The Duprees (Coed) 13
11. Be True to Your School - The Beach Boys (Capitol) 23
12. Drip Drop - Dion di Muci (Columbia) 8
13. You Don't Have to Be a Baby to Cry - The Caravelles (Smash)16
*14. Can I Get a Witness - Marvin Gaye (Tamla) 15
-----------------------------------------------------------------
15. Somewhere - The Tymes (Parkway) 19
16. Quicksand - Martha & the Vandellas (Gordy) 12
17. Wonderful Summer - Robin Ward (Dot) 14
18. Talk Back Trembling Lips - Johnny Tillotson (MGM) 20
19. The Nitty Gritty - Shirley Ellis (Congress) 22
*20. Baby, I Love You - The Ronettes (Philles) 28
21. Midnight Mary - Joey Powers (Amy) 18
*22. Drag City - Jan & Dean (Liberty) 25
23. Surfin' Bird - The Trashmen (Garrett) --
24. As Usual - Brenda Lee (Decca) 27
*25. Girls Grow Up Faster Than Boys - The Cookies (Dimension) 26
26. That Lucky Old Sun - Ray Charles (ABC-Paramount) --
27. I Wonder What She's Doing Tonight -
Barry & the Tamerlanes (Valiant) 5
*28. Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens (Atco) 29
29. Hey Little Cobra - The Rip Chords (Columbia) 30
30. The Boy Next Door - The Secrets (Philips) --
*32. Tonight You're Gonna Fall In Love with Me -
The Shirelles (Scepter) PH
37. Ask Me - Inez (and Charlie) Foxx (Symbol) --

Radio 77 Pick Hit:
Big-Town Boy -
Shirley Matthews & the Big Town Girls (Atlantic)

*Previous Pick Hit


Other than "Louie Louie" the nrest of the top ten was horrendous. Mainly MOR pop and old fashioned ballads. "Hand" debuted at #35 the following week, and then right to #1 the week after. "She Loves You" was already #2 on WABC before they were ever seen on Ed Sullivan. And 6 other Beatles songs were on WABC's survey that week, BEFORE the group was seen on Ed Sullivan:

EIGHT Beatles songs being played BEFORE they were on Ed Sullivan.

WEEK OF FEB 4 - WABC SURVEY

TW LW
1. I Want to Hold Your Hand - The Beatles (Capitol) *5 wks #1* 1
2. She Loves You - The Beatles (Swan) 2

3. You Don't Own Me - Lesley Gore (Mercury) 3
4. Java - Al Hirt (RCA) 14
5. Anyone Who Had a Heart - Dionne Warwick (Scepter) 7
6. I Only Want to Be With You - Dusty Springfield (Philips) 9
7. Hey Little Cobra - The Rip Chords (Columbia) 8
-----------------------------------------------------------------
8. Forget Him - Bobby Rydell (Cameo) 5
9. Dawn (Go Away) - The 4 Seasons (Philips) --
10. There! I've Said It Again - Bobby Vinton (Epic) 6
11. Surfin' Bird - The Trashmen (Garrett) 10
*12. Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um - Major Lance (Okeh) 11
13. Since I Fell For You - Lenny Welch (Cadence) 4
14. Out of Limits - The Marketts (Warner Brothers) 12
-----------------------------------------------------------------
15. What Kind of Fool (Do You Think I Am) -
The Tams (ABC-Paramount) 16
16. Please Please Me - The Beatles (Vee Jay) 13
17. Who Do You Love - The Sapphires (Swan) 24
18. I Wish You Love - Gloria Lynne (Everest) --
19. California Sun - The Rivieras (Riviera) 20
20. Live Wire - Martha & the Vandellas (Gordy) 22
21. Good News - Sam Cooke (RCA) 21
22. Navy Blue - Diane Renay (20th Century Fox) --
23. My Bonnie - The Beatles with Tony Sheridan (MGM) --
24. Stop and Think It Over - Dale and Grace (Montel) 26
*25. Abigail Beecher - Freddy Cannon (Warner Brothers) 29
26. Hello, Dolly! - Louis Armstrong (Kapp) --
27. Penetration - The Pyramids (Best) HP
*28. Can Your Monkey Do the Dog - Rufus Thomas (Stax) 30
29. (Let's Go to the) Drag Strip - The Tokens (RCA) 33
30. Fun, Fun, Fun - The Beach Boys (Capitol) --
31. Mary Jane - Del Shannon (Amy) --
32. I'll Be There (To Bring You Love) - The Majors (Imperial) --

Hot Prospects:
*Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five (Epic)
The Saints (When the Saints Go Marching In) -
The Beatles with Tony Sheridan (MGM)
I Saw Her Standing There - The Beatles (Capitol)
I'll Get You - The Beatles (Swan)
From Me to You - The Beatles (Vee Jay)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:29 pm 
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I...like many others...clearly recall hearing ABOUT The Beatles before I can recall actually HEARING The Beatles. Their haircuts were the first thing most people noticed about the band. Different sells...especially when you can then display talent to back it up.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:54 pm 
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Nov 18, 1963 - Beatles featured on CBS News.





Beatles on Jack Parr - Jan 3, 1964.



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:05 pm 
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McMurphy wrote:
Quote:
Here was my understanding of cultural impact and musical impact

Cultural impact is an artists effect on the general public as an artist, not as an actor, not as a political activist, as an artist.
Musical impact is an artists effect on the music industry and other musicians/studio techniques etc.

I think you're right about cultural impact, but I think musical impact has more to do with how they other artists reacted to their work. As in, how much of a positive response they got from their peers. What you described sounds more like influence to me.


that's what I meant, or think, guess I wrote it wrong. But yeah I agree wit hthat.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Sampson, let me see if I understand your basic method...

1. Come up with some criteria that you don't extensively explain outside of various disconnected, rambling forum posts.
2. Follow that criteria diligently to make a list after months or years of research.
3. Post the list, by itself, with no attached writing.
4. Wait for people to complain about the list, and only then start to explain why artists have their placements, again in disconnected, rambling forum posts.
5. In the course of explaining placements, go off on long tangents complaining about the complainers who don't understand the (totally unexplained) list placements.
6. Repeat steps 2-5 forever.

What purpose does this serve? If you have a great list of the 100 greatest rock artists of the 50s, and you claim it's totally accurate according to the criteria, but the only way anyone can judge your claim is by pestering you enough to get an extensive explanation of the criteria and then do years of independent research, again, what purpose does this serve? Who is helped?

The only thing the resulting list is worth is a quick read-through. You can glance at the criteria and judge it to mean that this is one man's attempt to judge historical importance and accomplishments. And then you can read the list and use it as some kind of template to discover historically significant music. Great. You could do the same thing with the artists grouped by tiers, or by years of activity, or by looking at historical Billboard charts, or by some other far easier, but only marginally less effective means. You have reached the point of diminishing returns and then gone 6 or 8 more years. If that's a labor of love, more power to you. I think your 50s and 60s lists are great.

But now you're not even the one making the list, and you're basically saying that it should take years of research to do it right, and that the results ought to be very similar no matter who does the list... C'mon. Give it a rest. Nobody should be asked to do that much research unless they're writing a book. You say the new editor should throw out the list... I agree, but they should start by throwing out the criteria. Replace the criteria with something simpler, which acknowledges that this is an imperfect process, and then work on some actual content to go along with the placements and make the whole thing more worthwhile to readers.

The stuff that Chris F. started years ago was great. Even though the list itself was more of a grab bag than your stuff, there was actual write-ups... Actual content along with the list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Eric Wood wrote:
Sampson, let me see if I understand your basic method...

1. Come up with some criteria that you don't extensively explain outside of various disconnected, rambling forum posts.
2. Follow that criteria diligently to make a list after months or years of research.
3. Post the list, by itself, with no attached writing.
4. Wait for people to complain about the list, and only then start to explain why artists have their placements, again in disconnected, rambling forum posts.
5. In the course of explaining placements, go off on long tangents complaining about the complainers who don't understand the (totally unexplained) list placements.
6. Repeat steps 2-5 forever.


ROFLMAO !!!!!


Eric Wood wrote:
What purpose does this serve? If you have a great list of the 100 greatest rock artists of the 50s, and you claim it's totally accurate according to the criteria, but the only way anyone can judge your claim is by pestering you enough to get an extensive explanation of the criteria and then do years of independent research, again, what purpose does this serve? Who is helped?

The only thing the resulting list is worth is a quick read-through. You can glance at the criteria and judge it to mean that this is one man's attempt to judge historical importance and accomplishments. And then you can read the list and use it as some kind of template to discover historically significant music. Great. You could do the same thing with the artists grouped by tiers, or by years of activity, or by looking at historical Billboard charts, or by some other far easier, but only marginally less effective means. You have reached the point of diminishing returns and then gone 6 or 8 more years. If that's a labor of love, more power to you. I think your 50s and 60s lists are great.

But now you're not even the one making the list, and you're basically saying that it should take years of research to do it right, and that the results ought to be very similar no matter who does the list... C'mon. Give it a rest. Nobody should be asked to do that much research unless they're writing a book. You say the new editor should throw out the list... I agree, but they should start by throwing out the criteria. Replace the criteria with something simpler, which acknowledges that this is an imperfect process, and then work on some actual content to go along with the placements and make the whole thing more worthwhile to readers.

The stuff that Chris F. started years ago was great. Even though the list itself was more of a grab bag than your stuff, there was actual write-ups... Actual content along with the list.


Great post Eric, although it will likely have Sampson taking his CD Player and going home again for a couple of years.

There's no way that two different editors will ever see eye to eye on which artist has more "musical impact" and "cultural impact." Those things are very subjective calls. Editors even disgaree on the one part of the criteria that is supposed to be completely objective......commercial impact. Sampson sees it as only the charts, mainy in the USA. Brian sees it as 80% USA charts and 20% UK charts with no other countries counted.

Sampson sees Screamin' Jay Hawkins as a top 50 artist from the 50s. I don't even see him as a top 200 artist from the 50s. He never made the charts, and only had one song that ever meant anything. His influence (stage act) is totally blown out of proportion because it was depicted in a a movie about Alan Freed. Hawkins was a very minor act in the 50s, could not even get gigs all that often. Most people who saw his act actually saw him in small venues in the 1960s. His act was considered a freak show by all the people I know (dozens) who saw him at a Freed show in the 50s. If he's top 50 for the 1950s then Zacherle should also be on the list, and Bobby Pickett should be on the 60s list.

Hawkins ranking above the Chantels, Dion and the Belmonts, Larry Williams, Bobby Darin and Ritchie Valens, among others is an absolute travesty.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:10 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Sampson sees Screamin' Jay Hawkins as a top 50 artist from the 50s. I don't even see him as a top 200 artist from the 50s.


Apparently he was pretty much a commercial failure, but I hear his stage act was and is very influential. Other than that I know nothing other than he made 'I put a spell on you'


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:10 pm 
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J.B. Trance wrote:

I wouldn't call this exactly "hopping." The Rock Artists thread has always been one of the most active threads in DDD history. It has its moments of activity. Even this thread doesn't hold a candle to the "Led Zeppelin vs Who" spectacle of yesteryear



This is a fantastic discussion!

And yeah, I still think Zeppelin is greater (I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise), but I know that this horse has been beaten to death and I respect all opinions posted here. I love both bands, and I have no problem with the Who coming out on top.

Like all of you, I love music. I know what it is enjoyable to my ears; However, I love learning about all areas of the criteria in this thread, and I check out every artist you discuss. It may be a heated debate for you, but it is a learning experience for me.

So I guess I just wanted to say thank you. And I love the differing opinions, that is what makes DDD great.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:02 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Sampson sees Screamin' Jay Hawkins as a top 50 artist from the 50s. I don't even see him as a top 200 artist from the 50s.


Apparently he was pretty much a commercial failure, but I hear his stage act was and is very influential. Other than that I know nothing other than he made 'I put a spell on you'


According to Wikipedia the coffin was not even his idea:

Soon after the release of "I Put a Spell on You", radio disc jockey Alan Freed offered Hawkins $300 to emerge from a coffin onstage. Hawkins accepted and soon created an outlandish stage persona in which performances began with the coffin and included "gold and leopard skin costumes and notable voodoo stage props, such as his smoking skull on a stick – named Henry – and rubber snakes." These props were suggestive of voodoo, but also presented with comic overtones that invited comparison to "a black Vincent Price."

That would have been 1957 already. Like I said most of his live appearances occurred after the 1950s:

He continued to tour and record through the 1960s and 1970s, particularly in Europe, where he was very popular. He appeared in performance (as himself) in the Alan Freed bio-pic American Hot Wax in 1978. Subsequently, filmmaker Jim Jarmusch featured "I Put a Spell on You" on the soundtrack – and deep in the plot – of his film Stranger Than Paradise (1983) and then Hawkins himself as a hotel night clerk in his Mystery Train and in roles in Álex de la Iglesia's Perdita Durango and Bill Duke's adaptation of Chester Himes' A Rage in Harlem.

His 1957 single "Frenzy" (found on the early 1980s compilation of the same name) was included in the compilation CD, Songs in the Key of X: Music from and Inspired by the X-Files, in 1996.[10] This song was featured in the show's Season 2 episode "Humbug". It was also covered by the band Batmobile.[citation needed] "I Put a Spell on You" was featured during the show and over the credits of Episode 303 of The Simpsons.[11]

In 1983, Hawkins relocated to the New York area. In 1984 and 1985, Hawkins collaborated with garage rockers The Fuzztones, resulting in "Screamin' Jay Hawkins and The Fuzztones Live" album recorded at Irving Plaza in December 1984. They perform in the 1986 movie Joey[12]

In July 1991, Hawkins released his album Black Music for White People.[13] The record features covers of two Tom Waits compositions: "Heart Attack and Vine"[14] (which, later that year, was used in a European Levi's advertisement without Waits' permission, resulting in a lawsuit),[15] and "Ice Cream Man" (which, contrary to popular belief,[citation needed] is a Waits original, and not a cover of the John Brim classic).[16] Hawkins also covered the Waits song, "Whistlin' Past the Graveyard", for his album Somethin' Funny Goin' On. In 1993, his version of "Heart Attack and Vine" became his only UK hit, reaching # 42 on the UK singles chart.[17]

When Dread Zeppelin recorded their "disco" album, It's Not Unusual in 1992, producer Jah Paul Jo asked Hawkins to guest. He performed the songs "Jungle Boogie" and "Disco Inferno".

Hawkins also toured with The Clash and Nick Cave during this period, and not only became a fixture of blues festivals, but appeared at many film festivals as well.


This guy does not belong among the top 50 artists of the 1950s. Most of what he did and was known for occurred long after the 1950s. None of the people who were supposedly influenced by his stage act even knew about him in the 50s. Alice Cooper, for instance, was born in 1948. He never saw any Hawkins live appearance in the 1950s, if he ever did at all.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:15 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Brian wrote:
BTW, and this might not be relevant to the analogy that was made earlier, but the primary reason why DiMaggio > Kaline is that Joe was a better defensive player.


Stick with music, Brian.

The primary reason that DiMaggio was better than Kaline is because he was a much better offensive player.

CAREER OPS+
Dimaggio - 155
Kaline - 134

DiMaggio was 55% above average as a hitter, kaline only 34%.

Al Kaline won 10 gold gloves, including one as a CFer. According to defensive WAR Kaline was a much better fielder than DiMaggio.

CAREER DEFENSIVE WAR
Kaline - 16.3
DiMaggio - 4.7


What if we're talking Dom?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:20 am 
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pgm wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Brian wrote:
BTW, and this might not be relevant to the analogy that was made earlier, but the primary reason why DiMaggio > Kaline is that Joe was a better defensive player.


Stick with music, Brian.

The primary reason that DiMaggio was better than Kaline is because he was a much better offensive player.

CAREER OPS+
Dimaggio - 155
Kaline - 134

DiMaggio was 55% above average as a hitter, kaline only 34%.

Al Kaline won 10 gold gloves, including one as a CFer. According to defensive WAR Kaline was a much better fielder than DiMaggio.

CAREER DEFENSIVE WAR
Kaline - 16.3
DiMaggio - 4.7


What if we're talking Dom?


Dom's Defensive WAR is 3.3


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:28 am 
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Talk about GREAT outfield arms...another former Tiger (and Indian, et al)...Rocco "Rocky" Colavito...He had a rifle. His arm was so strong, I remember them bringing him in from left field to take the mound as a relief pitcher.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:34 am 
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Brian wrote:
This is the tentative revision of the list as it currently stands:

55. Joni Mitchell
56. The Drifters
57. Metallica
58. Eagles
59. Fleetwood Mac
60. Creedence Clearwater Revival


Why would Joni Mitchell beat out huge acts like CCR and the Eagles?

I've only heard 4 or 5 songs by her in my life, and it's not like she's some modern artist that I never paid attention to or something. What makes her so much more significant than say....Carole King?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:39 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Dom's Defensive WAR is 3.3


That's a flaw in DWAR, if it's less than Joe.

And welcome Eric, I can see you have a future here.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:46 am 
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pgm wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Dom's Defensive WAR is 3.3


That's a flaw in DWAR, if it's less than Joe.



Joe played 25% more games in the OF than Dom did. That's most of the reason why his number is higher, although Joe does come out better per game.


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