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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:12 am 
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Sampson wrote:
not to mention sampling, if you even want to stretch it that far) and it's certainly fair to say that Sly's music


Yes, definitely among the most sampled artists of all time, but it's not like Black Sabbath haven't been sampled too, although not to the Family Stone's degree.

Kanye West, Fugees, Busta Rhymes, Fatboy Slim, Beck, Insane Clown Posse, Enigma, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beatnuts, Jungle Brothers, Alice In Chains, Ice-T, Beastie Boys, Butthole Surfers, Ultramagnetic MC's, Staind, Eminem, OutKast, Cypress Hill, Young MC, Vanilla Ice, etc., etc., have all sampled their work.

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Their longer career resulted in a greater total number in album sales, simply because they had a far greater number of albums to sell (by about a three to one ratio)


Sly vs Sabbath is a case-by-case basis because there are all sorts of other variables.

A long(er) career does not equate great success. Also, you can have a short career (like ABBA's and The Beatles') and still trump virtually everyone else in popularity. You can be music-changing, decades-experiencing as Miles Davis and still not be able to be a cash cow like Elton John.

Look at the long career of Nana Mouskouri. Most Americans wouldn't know who she was and yet she was a huge seller around the world.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:58 am 
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Sampson, I agree with you in The Who-Wonder-BB case.
But what you think about Aretha-MJ? Them could belongs in the top 10?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:04 am 
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Even in Asia Sabbath is still popular and an influence, especially considering the size of metal. I could probably wander all of Japan or China and it would take me a damn, damn long while to find someone who knows Sly and the Family Stone. Sabbath? Probably much quicker.


You'd find someone who knows Sabbath quicker? Why the hell would that matter?! You'd probably sooner find someone who could tell you who Black Sabbath was than who Fats Domino was, but Fats is still more influential and more popular.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:08 am 
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Bruno_Antonio wrote:
Sampson, I agree with you in The Who-Wonder-BB case.
But what you think about Aretha-MJ? Them could belongs in the top 10?


I could definitely see MJ above Hendrix, but I don't think he belongs above Fats. Maybe he does, but I think its atleast really close between those two.

Aretha might just squeeze into the top 10, but right now I think she probably belongs at 11, once the Who have been moved down a little bit.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:32 am 
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That said, it is about time that I addressed the lower part of the top 10. It appears to me that the 3 artists outside of the top 6 that do the best in the criteria are Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and The Beach Boys, so they should occupy positions 7-9, unless one of them can dislodge Chuck Berry from #6. If that's true, the next question is what order these 3 should be in. To me, they appear to be very close.


I think the order that they're in now makes the most sense to me. Ray Charles does the best in influence, and probably also cultural impact. I'm not sure if he wins musical impact, but I know he's a giant there, and he atleast matches Stevie & BB. I'm sure he doesn't do nearly as well as the other two in popularity, but his influence and cultural impact leed is probably enough to warrant his place above them. As for Stevie and Beach Boys, from what I gather Stevie is ahead on popularity, BB are ahead in influence by a little bit, and musical impact is close. I think Sampson referred to Stevie as having more cultural impact than the Beach Boys, so I'll go with that, but I'd say its hardly a blowout. So in short, I'd have those three ranked as
7.Ray Charles
8.Stevie Wonder
9.Beach Boys

then maybe...
10.Led Zeppelin
11.Aretha Franklin
12.The Who
13. Fats Domino
or something like that? I think that either Aretha or Zep should be the highest of the bunch, but I'm not sure where the other 2 fit in.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:59 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Brian wrote:
That said, it is about time that I addressed the lower part of the top 10. It appears to me that the 3 artists outside of the top 6 that do the best in the criteria are Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and The Beach Boys, so they should occupy positions 7-9.


What makes Stevie Wonder and The Beach Boys greater than The Who?


They were each much more popular for one thing. The Who never had huge hits singles like both of them did, and they both also beat The Who in album sales. Stevie and the Beach Boys appeal to a much wider cross section of people too. People who listen to Light-FM type stations and adult stations like many Stevie and Beach Boys songs. The Who don't have any mainstream pop songs like that. Other thana couple of songs the Who only fit one format, Classic rock. That's it.


If that were true, they wouldn't have been given Kennedy Center Honors, nor landed the Super Bowl gig. I don't understand this lack of perspective on the mass appeal of The Who. From Tommy in 1969 to Endless Wire in 2006, every album of new studio material from The Who has hit the top ten. Not many artists can say that. Certainly not the Beach Boys, who since Pet Sounds in 1966 have released many albums of new studio material that have missed the top ten. And, more than once, even missed the top 150. The Beach Boys period of consistent top ten success was brief. A mere four years. After that, they hit the top ten with a new album only once. 15 Big Ones went to #8 in 1976. That's it. And there aren't many artists that have the kind of mass popular appeal that fills football and baseball stadiums several times over. The Who even packed 103,000 people into JFK Stadium, a record for the largest non-festival audience in popular music history for over a quarter century. U2 finally broke it a couple years ago. Of course, over 240,000 people showed up to The Who's gigs in Giants Stadium over four nights, as well. This isn't some niche band, Bruce.

Regardless, popularity is one quarter of the criteria. You want to talk influence? Can the Beach Boys really be more influential than The Who? The Who are one of the keystone artists in hard rock, power pop and art rock influence. Hard rock is one of the most enduring genres in music. Far more so than Surf Rock, who's heyday was exceptionally brief. The Beach Boys have a lot of influence in studio production techniques, but The Who's influence in the live arena and in musicianship is at least as massive. How many legions of guitarists are directly inspired by Pete Townshend? How many legions of drummers are influenced by Keith Moon? How many legions of bass players are inspired by John "The Ox" Entwistle? We're talking massive numbers of people, here. Dennis Wilson's drums? Brian Wilson's bass playing? Carl Wilson's Chuck Berry guitar? Not in the same league. And then there's Roger Daltrey, one of the most influential of all hard rock vocalists.

As for Stevie Wonder, the same applies to him. He's released several new studio albums that failed to crack the top ten since his Talking Book breakthrough. The most groundbreaking thing he ever did was his synthesizer experimentation, and The Who even beat him to that, big time, with Who's Next.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:24 am 
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Sampson wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Brian wrote:
That said, it is about time that I addressed the lower part of the top 10. It appears to me that the 3 artists outside of the top 6 that do the best in the criteria are Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and The Beach Boys, so they should occupy positions 7-9.


What makes Stevie Wonder and The Beach Boys greater than The Who?


I can make a far better argument for Stevie to be #4 overall and the Beach Boys #5 than I could make for the Who to make the Top 10 or 15. Their popularity is really far behind. Wonder and The Beach Boys have over 60 hits apiece, the Who don't even have half that. In albums that reached the Top Thirty, The Beach Boys have twenty, Wonder has 16, The Who have 12. Furthermore, to add era-specific context, The Beach Boys and Wonder both had the start of their careers in the pre-album oriented years as well, yet both still cracked the Top Ten during that time when it was much harder for rock artists to do so than only a few years later when The Who came along. Also, worldwide, since I know someone will bring it up, The Beach Boys had number one hits in countries with songs that didn't even go Top TEN in America, so they aren't lacking there at all. Stevie's got 51 British hits, again including huge hits that didn't even chart in the U.S., meaning they weren't simply piggy-backing his homegrown success. The Who, in their own country, have less than thirty hits by comparison. There's virtually nothing the Who can do to make up for that huge disparity, especially since the other areas aren't weak at all for the others. The influence of all three are close, I have it BB, Who, Wonder on the DDD list. Musical Impact - again all three do well, but the Beach Boys and Wonder are two of the elite of all time here, completely off the charts and just a clear notch above the Who. They do very well, but not nearly as well as the other two. Cultural Impact same thing. Stevie wins it, Beach Boys and Who are lower down.

The Who aren't sniffing the Top Ten if this is done accurately. There's just a logjam up there of major artists with much deeper resumes. The Who don't do poorly in anything, but there's no area that they crush in versus the all-time greats, and to edge ahead you kinda need at least one area that you soar above the rest you're competing against. Their best area is influence but there's at least fifteen artists better than them there and another fifteen that are really close. That means whoever does better elsewhere is going to win and in this case it's plainly obvious both the Beach Boys and Wonder do significantly better in Commercial Impact and Musical Impact. The contest is over right there, but the final nail in the Who's coffin is figuring in the Beach Boys take influence, while Wonder takes Cultural, which all adds up to the Who on the outside looking in.

I know you don't want to hear it, my friend, but Top Twenty over a 65 year period is a helluva accomplishment. Gerry & The Pacemakers would take that in a heartbeat if that's any consolation.


Popularity might be closer than you think if you factor in concert success and maintaining popularity over time, both of which The Who do great in. I do think The Who take influence over the Beach Boys. I'm not sure what Stevie Wonder's cultural impact is beyond fame. And I think The Who are among the same elite in musical impact as Stevie Wonder and the Beach Boys are. There is no single Stevie Wonder song as revered as "My Generation". And The Who's live reputation is the elite of the elite.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:26 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Regardless, popularity is one quarter of the criteria. You want to talk influence? Can the Beach Boys really be more influential than The Who?


To be honest, this whole "influence" category never interested me much. I never really thought about it until I started making lists here for Lew. To me,

ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE SPEAKERS

I really don't care who influenced an artist. If their music sounds good to me, that's all I care about. I also don't really care who an artist influenced. I don't see the fact that an artist influenced a lot of other artists as an automatic positive thing. For me, the influence of Jimi Hendrix, the Velvet Underground, and others was an awful thing.

Do we give positive points to Jose Canseco for being perhaps the most influential person in the advent of steroids becoming rampant in major league baseball?

I don't see why we just assume that all musical influence is a good thing.

That being said, the guiy on the site who does care a lot about influence, Sampson, has the Beach Boys ranked above the Who in that category:

1. Elvis Presley
2. The Beatles
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Chuck Berry
6. Run-D.M.C.
7. The Jimi Hendrix Experience
8. Ray Charles
9. Led Zeppelin
10. Fats Domino
11. Aretha Franklin
12. Clyde McPhatter
13. Little Richard
14. Madonna
15. Buddy Holly & The Crickets
16. Bill Haley & The Comets
17. Michael Jackson
18. The Beach Boys
19. Sam Cooke
20. The Who
21. Bo Diddley
22. Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
23. Black Sabbath
24. Johnny Otis
25. Public Enemy
26. Stevie Wonder


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:35 am 
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Bruce wrote:
I don't see why we just assume that all musical influence is a good thing.


We don't. We just see it as a great thing. Sometimes it's "great" in the same sense that resulted in Time Magazine making Adolph Hitler Man of the Year.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:40 am 
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Anyway, I'm not totally opposed to Stevie Wonder and The Beach Boys being ranked ahead of The Who on this list. They're both worthy artists. But I think it's really close and conceivable that The Who are the greater rock artist by the criteria. So, I'll make my arguments and see what you guys think. I think The Who's accomplishments in the live arena put them over the top, because their accomplishments in the studio put them very close to Wonder and the Beach Boys as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:59 am 
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J.B. Trance wrote:
A long(er) career does not equate great success. Also, you can have a short career (like ABBA's and The Beatles') and still trump virtually everyone else in popularity. You can be music-changing, decades-experiencing as Miles Davis and still not be able to be a cash cow like Elton John.


Elton John shocking fact: He has released more new studio albums that missed the top ten than have made the top ten. True story. Fourteen made the top ten. Sixteen did not.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:05 am 
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McMurphy wrote:
Aretha might just squeeze into the top 10, but right now I think she probably belongs at 11, once the Who have been moved down a little bit.


You ought to be kicking Led Zeppelin out long before The Who.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:10 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
J.B. Trance wrote:
A long(er) career does not equate great success. Also, you can have a short career (like ABBA's and The Beatles') and still trump virtually everyone else in popularity. You can be music-changing, decades-experiencing as Miles Davis and still not be able to be a cash cow like Elton John.


Elton John shocking fact: He has released more new studio albums that missed the top ten than have made the top ten. True story. Fourteen made the top ten. Sixteen did not.


Meanwhile the Who have not even made the singles chart since 1982, while Elton has 32 hit singles since then, including 8 top tens and another 9 that made the top 20. He is listed as the #3 artist of all time on the singles chart (1955-now).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:22 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
J.B. Trance wrote:
A long(er) career does not equate great success. Also, you can have a short career (like ABBA's and The Beatles') and still trump virtually everyone else in popularity. You can be music-changing, decades-experiencing as Miles Davis and still not be able to be a cash cow like Elton John.


Elton John shocking fact: He has released more new studio albums that missed the top ten than have made the top ten. True story. Fourteen made the top ten. Sixteen did not.


Meanwhile the Who have not even made the singles chart since 1982, while Elton has 32 hit singles since then, including 8 top tens and another 9 that made the top 20. He is listed as the #3 artist of all time on the singles chart (1955-now).


Hence the "shocking" part of my shocking fact.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:30 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
J.B. Trance wrote:
A long(er) career does not equate great success. Also, you can have a short career (like ABBA's and The Beatles') and still trump virtually everyone else in popularity. You can be music-changing, decades-experiencing as Miles Davis and still not be able to be a cash cow like Elton John.


Elton John shocking fact: He has released more new studio albums that missed the top ten than have made the top ten. True story. Fourteen made the top ten. Sixteen did not.


Meanwhile the Who have not even made the singles chart since 1982, while Elton has 32 hit singles since then, including 8 top tens and another 9 that made the top 20. He is listed as the #3 artist of all time on the singles chart (1955-now).

As I said here in this same topic, Elton John is a little low, he deserve be in the top 20.


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