It is currently Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:15 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1100 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 74  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:02 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 1421
ClashWho wrote:
Don't be a dick, Sampson. I didn't make it personal in my post. Plenty of people have posted in here saying that The Who are too low by the criteria. Negative Creep just did it on this very page. It's not just me. The Who's huge lead in influence ought to more than make-up for Bruce Springsteen's lead in impact of live performance on career.


Sorry Clash, I wasn't trying to be a dick, but the toilet bowl comment was pretty dickish, I'll admit. I apologize.

My main point though was this, and I hope you take this the right way - your devotion to the Who, your repeated posts on them on every thread, your never being satisfied with their positioning, your accusations of bias against anyone who doesn't share your lofty view of them in all ways, is a detriment. In fact, it winds up turning more people away from what else you write (which is always good, outside of the Who, but also including a lot of your stuff on them) and from liking the Who more themselves. You can't possibly WANT to turn people off to the group, but that's what happens. I said on another thread (Greatest Rock Artists) recently to someone who was complaining about wading through hundreds of your Who posts that I think you're one of the best people on the site to talk music with, provided it's not about the Who, just because you can't see straight on them anymore. Earlier in this thread, when I tweaked the criteria and the Who moved up as a result, you said that the three names higher were the only three you could tolerate being above them, but now you can't tolerate it anymore apparently. I've tried explaining the rankings to you as detailed as I can, and respect you dissenting on it, but it's like you don't believe that they actually earned the fourth spot fairly or that the others earned their spots and that's frustrating. If it was an isolated incident then that'd be one thing, just a difference of opinion, but it's not with you and the Who, it's WAY deeper seated than that, and I don't understand why. Every single tiny thing with them you push for having count far more than its worth, then you denigrate others above them in various categories to try and tear them down. That's just not cool at all, and if you were an editor having to see this barrage of posts from one person about one artist all the time you'd understand. It just gets tiring after awhile, that's all.

As I said before, when you talk about other artists, and you seem to have huge tastes otherwise, always want to learn more about other artists and have great insights to other topics, your personality itself almost changes completely than when you're talking the Who, and that's when you're great talking with. Just not with the Who anymore. Maybe they're too close to your heart, like a mother defending her children's behavior to outsiders. But after how many thousand of points you've made on the Who I don't think it's likely that any editor is unaware of anything they did, including what Pete had for breakfast this morning, so at a certain point it just becomes suffocating. That's all I was trying to convey. So one last time, the Who do great in the criteria but just not quite as great overall as the three names above them, close though it may be with Springsteen, he edges them out by a slim margin. The other two by even more. No conspiracy, no missed or undervalued area, no fiendish plot... no hard feelings though either.

How about talking Johnny Otis for a change? Anyone... anyone???


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:33 am
Posts: 794
Bruno_Antonio wrote:
Sampson wrote:
Michael is someone I think I might have too high. His peak performances were very limited, he wasn't a touring machine like so many others. Specific moments on stage though are as iconic as any, and that's what I credited him with, but going by the criteria he could be a little high.

Limited? How? You should know that Jackson has always been a perfectionist artist, and their touring it was very evident. In the documentary This Is It becomes clear how much he cared for who left everything perfect for the audience. On stage the man was insane and absurd. After a show, came to lose 2-4 pounds, a real machine on stage.

A fact about his Bad Tour:

Quote:
In 16 months, Jackson performed 123 concerts in 15 countries to an audience of 4.4 million for a total gross of $125 million. Guinness World Records recognized the tour as the largest grossing in history and the tour to play to the most people ever.


these are great numbers for MJ, it's an average of almost 36,000 people!

As for Queen there is nothing much to add to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_live_performances


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm
Posts: 30019
Sampson wrote:
Sorry Clash, I wasn't trying to be a dick, but the toilet bowl comment was pretty dickish, I'll admit. I apologize.


No problem. I give you a lot of shit, sometimes.

Sampson wrote:
your never being satisfied with their positioning


I was satisfied with their position on this list for years! :razz:

Seriously, though, The Who's #1 position on this list was among the least controversial and least contested on this website. Just sayin'.

Sampson wrote:
Earlier in this thread, when I tweaked the criteria and the Who moved up as a result, you said that the three names higher were the only three you could tolerate being above them, but now you can't tolerate it anymore apparently.


Naah, I can. Now that I think about it, Bruce might have a slight edge in consistency of performance over time. Has he ever delivered a bad performance? Daltrey and Entwistle are as solid as they come, but Townshend and Moon each had a couple drugs and/or alcohol-impaired performances in the seventies. This is brutal:



EDIT: Eh, it's not as bad as I remembered. Pete's fighting a broken string. Still, a very sub-par performance from him. He's probably drunk.

Sampson wrote:
It just gets tiring after awhile, that's all.


Yeah.

Sampson wrote:
How about talking Johnny Otis for a change? Anyone... anyone???


I know very little about him, actually.


Last edited by ClashWho on Tue May 01, 2012 10:56 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm
Posts: 30019
Sampson wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Sampson wrote:
As for Monterey, the Who comparatively bombed there, as I said before, wrong show to do.


That's just false. The Who were praised for their performance. The artists that fared poorly included: The Mamas and The Papas, Laura Nyro, The Grateful Dead, The Byrds, etc. Not The Who. Their set is (and was) considered one of the best of the festival.


No, that's in retrospect. The actual audience at the Monterey Pop Festival were aghast at them smashing instruments. That was a peace, love and flowers crowd, the love crowd as Otis Redding put it. They basically assaulted the crowd and the faces of the audience look as though they had just been raped or something. People who were there said the Who went over as poor as anybody but Nyro.

Now looking back, taking it out of the context of the specific scene, it's a classic performance AS WE'VE COME TO KNOW THE WHO. Therein lies the key. You, being a Who fan, looks at it and says "I'd have loved to been there, they kicked ass". But it'd be like Richard Pryor doing an unedited stand up routine at a Girl Scout banquet. The jokes may still be funny in another context, but not there. The Who's problem was they were still not all THAT well known in America, their live routine wasn't familiar to people, the audience didn't know what to expect, then when they went ahead with their usual routine the crowd just wanted them to stop. They couldn't help but be poorly received. I think that falls under them not understanding the audience, but their reception at Monterey at the time was bad. Same exact show at a different venue three years later and the reception would've been far better most likely.


What about Jimi Hendrix's reception? John Phillips said The Who and Hendrix were determined to out-do each other and that to this day (well, he's dead now, but you know what I mean) he isn't sure who really won. I just trawled through the early issues of Rolling Stone for their coverage of Monterey and couldn't find much, but they considered The Who one of the highlights of the film. The Who certainly impressed Tommy Smothers and D.A. Pennebaker, anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:00 am
Posts: 2105
D.J. wrote:
Bruno_Antonio wrote:
Sampson wrote:
Michael is someone I think I might have too high. His peak performances were very limited, he wasn't a touring machine like so many others. Specific moments on stage though are as iconic as any, and that's what I credited him with, but going by the criteria he could be a little high.

Limited? How? You should know that Jackson has always been a perfectionist artist, and their touring it was very evident. In the documentary This Is It becomes clear how much he cared for who left everything perfect for the audience. On stage the man was insane and absurd. After a show, came to lose 2-4 pounds, a real machine on stage.

A fact about his Bad Tour:

Quote:
In 16 months, Jackson performed 123 concerts in 15 countries to an audience of 4.4 million for a total gross of $125 million. Guinness World Records recognized the tour as the largest grossing in history and the tour to play to the most people ever.


these are great numbers for MJ, it's an average of almost 36,000 people!

As for Queen there is nothing much to add to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_live_performances

Yeah, two greatest live artists!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:24 am 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 1421
ClashWho wrote:
Sampson wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Sampson wrote:
As for Monterey, the Who comparatively bombed there, as I said before, wrong show to do.


That's just false. The Who were praised for their performance. The artists that fared poorly included: The Mamas and The Papas, Laura Nyro, The Grateful Dead, The Byrds, etc. Not The Who. Their set is (and was) considered one of the best of the festival.


No, that's in retrospect. The actual audience at the Monterey Pop Festival were aghast at them smashing instruments. That was a peace, love and flowers crowd, the love crowd as Otis Redding put it. They basically assaulted the crowd and the faces of the audience look as though they had just been raped or something. People who were there said the Who went over as poor as anybody but Nyro.

Now looking back, taking it out of the context of the specific scene, it's a classic performance AS WE'VE COME TO KNOW THE WHO. Therein lies the key. You, being a Who fan, looks at it and says "I'd have loved to been there, they kicked ass". But it'd be like Richard Pryor doing an unedited stand up routine at a Girl Scout banquet. The jokes may still be funny in another context, but not there. The Who's problem was they were still not all THAT well known in America, their live routine wasn't familiar to people, the audience didn't know what to expect, then when they went ahead with their usual routine the crowd just wanted them to stop. They couldn't help but be poorly received. I think that falls under them not understanding the audience, but their reception at Monterey at the time was bad. Same exact show at a different venue three years later and the reception would've been far better most likely.


What about Jimi Hendrix's reception? John Phillips said The Who and Hendrix were determined to out-do each other and that to this day (well, he's dead now, but you know what I mean) he isn't sure who really won. I just trawled through the early issues of Rolling Stone for their coverage of Monterey and couldn't find much, but they considered The Who one of the highlights of the film. The Who certainly impressed Tommy Smothers and D.A. Pennebaker, anyway.


I've always personally believed that the Who's destruction of their instruments is what made for greater acceptance of Hendrix doing his routine immediately after it. I don't think Hendrix would've smashed his guitar if the Who hadn't first, but the crowd was so shocked and turned off by the Who doing it (again, wrong place and time, that's all) that when Hendrix did the same, it seemed partly a send-up, but also his was more erotic, coaxing the flames up, whereas the Who was more aggressive and angry in nature, which is what turned the crowd off, because it went against the entire vibe of the weekend.

Smothers was also looking at The Who from the POV of what would make for unpredictable spectacle-like television. What better potential controversy to have on TV than something that could result in wanton destruction? Since TV audiences had no idea who the group was, it was going to shock viewers and that what they were hoping for. Classic appearance though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm
Posts: 30019
I wish I could find something that says the crowd at Monterey was turned off by The Who's performance, but I can't. David Crosby said he was shocked and offended by The Who and Hendrix smashing their instruments at the time, but by the time of Woodstock they were "heroes" to him. But, anyway, let's talk about someone else.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:47 am 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 1421
ClashWho wrote:
I wish I could find something that says the crowd at Monterey was turned off by The Who's performance, but I can't. David Crosby said he was shocked and offended by The Who and Hendrix smashing their instruments at the time, but by the time of Woodstock they were "heroes" to him.


The write-ups at the time weren't very thorough. That was the first rock festival and the few rock magazines at the time were in their infancy. The crowd reaction is easily seen in the footage of it though, the faces are of shock and disgust. Talking with people who were there they say the same thing, they almost felt violated by it. Again, just the wrong place and wrong time to do that sort of thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm
Posts: 30019
Sampson wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
I wish I could find something that says the crowd at Monterey was turned off by The Who's performance, but I can't. David Crosby said he was shocked and offended by The Who and Hendrix smashing their instruments at the time, but by the time of Woodstock they were "heroes" to him.


The write-ups at the time weren't very thorough. That was the first rock festival and the few rock magazines at the time were in their infancy. The crowd reaction is easily seen in the footage of it though, the faces are of shock and disgust. Talking with people who were there they say the same thing, they almost felt violated by it. Again, just the wrong place and wrong time to do that sort of thing.


It's Roger Daltrey's favorite gig he ever did, though. I doubt he'd think that if they were so poorly received. He loved Monterey, but hated Woodstock.

So... Johnny Otis. Give me a primer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:05 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 1421
ClashWho wrote:
So... Johnny Otis. Give me a primer.


Johnny Otis was the first guy in rock to assemble a touring caravan of artists, backed by his own band, and which included vocalists Little Esther, Mel Walker, The Robins and others. They had some of the classic instrumentalists of the time too - James Von Streeter on sax, Pete Lewis (and later Jimmy Nolen, who became James Brown's guitarist) on guitar, Lady Dee on piano, Johnny himself on drums and vibes. They could throw down with anyone. The basic rock tour kind of grew out of them, which gives Otis enormous influence on the evolution of the live concert experience and which is why he's ranked so highly. Truthfully he should also be high on the overall artists list, but for some reason gets overlooked. He dominated the early 50's commercially, produced and played on immortal records (the original Hound Dog by Big Mama Thornton, "Pledging My Love" by Johnny Ace), wrote huge hits for others ("Every Beat Of My Heart" by the Pips, though originally written for the Royals a/k/a Midnighters) plus was credited for discovering a ton of artists, he owned his own label, was the first rock artist to host a TV show in the mid-50's. Amazing resume.

Here's three cuts with Johnny himself on vocals

EARLY 50's




MID 50's




LATE 50's



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:41 am 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:12 pm
Posts: 5066
Location: http://thesportingview-kes.blogspot.com/
Just to go down a side alley so to speak, it's a shame Shuggie Otis stopped making music. Really talented blues guitarist and then his handful of solo records were really interesting soulful albums.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:48 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 1421
Shuggie was amazing. I love the fact he turned the Rolling Stones down to join as their guitarist and they had to "settle" for Ron Wood. Shuggie's original version of "Strawberry Letter 23" is a surreal trip of a song. Not everybody's taste obviously, but an amazing production. Glad someone knows him. His old man though was even more amazing and needs far more serious discussion on him around here. The godfather of rock 'n' roll basically.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm
Posts: 30019
Sampson wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
So... Johnny Otis. Give me a primer.


Johnny Otis was the first guy in rock to assemble a touring caravan of artists, backed by his own band, and which included vocalists Little Esther, Mel Walker, The Robins and others. They had some of the classic instrumentalists of the time too - James Von Streeter on sax, Pete Lewis (and later Jimmy Nolen, who became James Brown's guitarist) on guitar, Lady Dee on piano, Johnny himself on drums and vibes. They could throw down with anyone. The basic rock tour kind of grew out of them, which gives Otis enormous influence on the evolution of the live concert experience and which is why he's ranked so highly. Truthfully he should also be high on the overall artists list, but for some reason gets overlooked. He dominated the early 50's commercially, produced and played on immortal records (the original Hound Dog by Big Mama Thornton, "Pledging My Love" by Johnny Ace), wrote huge hits for others ("Every Beat Of My Heart" by the Pips, though originally written for the Royals a/k/a Midnighters) plus was credited for discovering a ton of artists, he owned his own label, was the first rock artist to host a TV show in the mid-50's. Amazing resume.

Here's three cuts with Johnny himself on vocals

EARLY 50's




MID 50's




LATE 50's



1969



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:59 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 1421
The Snatch & The Poontangs is a good album. You can get it on a twofer with Cold Shot, another great late 60's LP by Otis.

If you want a great book to read, get Johnny Otis's Listen To The Lambs. He wrote it after the 1965 Watts Riots, it's mostly about that, but it tells his own story interwoven throughout it. One of the best written rock books ever, especially considering he penned it himself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Live Rock Artists
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm
Posts: 30019
Reading up on Johnny Otis, his stint as Snatch & the Poontangs is not something I was expecting. :lol:

Surprising that he was inducted as a non-performer.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1100 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 74  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

DigitalDreamDoor Forum is one part of a music and movie list website whose owner has given its visitors
the privilege to discuss music and movies, and has no control and cannot in any way be held liable over
how, or by whom this board is used. If you read or see anything inappropriate that has been posted,
contact webmaster@digitaldreamdoor.com. Comments in the forum are reviewed before list updates.
Topics include rock music, metal, rap, hip-hop, blues, jazz, songs, albums, guitar, drums, musicians...


DDD Home Page | DDD Music Lists Page | DDD Movie Lists Page