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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:52 pm 
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The Everly Brothers are the Greater Artist over the course of their careers. The Everly's Musical Impact was enormous, other artists thought so highly of them at the time, something that has been kind of lost in the years since. Holly's name today is bigger as often happens when someone dies young and in a spectacular fashion, but again that's modern perception skewing things, which occurs way too much. The Everly Brothers had the greater career achievements.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Perception is reality. Especially when it comes to impact and influence.

Sure, there were "albums with a concept" before the Beatles--heck, Sinatra and Nat King Cole used to do that all the time. And to the extent that that type of album is important, the Beatles get no credit for that. But that's not "the concept album", which, like a lot of things in the arts, is something of a misnomer. It was the change in the perception of the album that was so important. The idea that the album could be viewed as a unified statement which was greater than the sum of its parts. That was primarily due to the Beatles. Dylan, the Beach Boys, and the Who contributed to it, but it was a definite marked change from what happened before the Beatles.

You may be right that there's nothing specific that they did first, but I think you tie influence too closely to innovation. As I said elsewhere, there's very little that's actually completely unprecedented, and I think if we applied that idea strictly the Most Influential list would be filled with artists whom we've never heard of or don't know much about, simply because they did something specific first that one of the greats turned into an important and influential idea.


That's why I have secondary influence, which is not for innovation, but for the widespread expansion of something that was already in existance. The Beatles do get credit for that, but they are not alone in that regard, as you point out. So since album sales in rock were on the increase already, as was album experimentation in terms of artists being much more cognizant of the material they were including on albums and trying to ensure it was of a similar nature and a high level across the board, this was already the growing trend when they came along. They added to that with their releases, but the perception of them being the catalyst in this does not meet reality enough to make it defensible to grant them more credit than they deserve.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:05 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Because we have posting right now what are probably DDD's 2 leading authorities on '50s rock, Sampson and Bruce,


Brian, while what you say above may be true, it's kinda like saying that Jerry Allison and Buddy Holly were the two most important members of the Crickets. Both statements may be true, but the difference between the top guy (Bruce, Buddy) and the second guy (Allison, Sampson) in each case is immense.

I actually met, talked to, and interviewed several artists who are on Sampson's 1950s list. Here is a picture of me with one of them.

Attachment:
BG & RB.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:39 am 
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Bruce wrote:
The cool rebel look was much more due to james dean than to elvis.


Well, Marlon Brando beat them both to it in The Wild One. But Elvis was the one that horrified an entire generation of parents. Not Marlon Brando. Not James Dean. And certainly not the Beatles.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:58 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
The cool rebel look was much more due to james dean than to elvis.


Well, Marlon Brando beat them both to it in The Wild One. But Elvis was the one that horrified an entire generation of parents. Not Marlon Brando. Not James Dean. And certainly not the Beatles.


Elvis horrified nobody. That was Little Richard you're thinking of.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:08 am 
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Bruce wrote:
In my estimation commercial success would be like 40% with cultural impact no more than 10%.


I think that's ridiculous. If anything, commercial success should be the least of the four criteria. There are tons of artists that were huge commercial successes and contributed little of real importance to rock music. Artists like Journey, Hootie and the Blowfish, Heart, Pat Boone, the Osmonds, the list goes on and on. None of them are worth one Ramones, Sex Pistols, Velvet Underground, MC5, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Jerry Lee Lewis, and so on.

Bruce wrote:
My girlfriend Diane was born in 1948. When Holly died she was about to turn 11 years old in a few days. She had no idea who Holly was, but knew who Valens was because "Donna" was a huge hit at the time. Holly was just not that well known in the 50s, as three of his four really big hits up to his death were by the Crickets. Only "Peggy Sue" was a big hit by Buddy Holly. Some other kids told Diane that Holly was the guy who did that song "Peggy Sue" a couple of years ago and she then remembered him, but most people at that time did not even realize that Holly was part of the Crickets. She also realized who the Big Bopper was after being reminded that "Chantilly Lace" was a huge hit just a couple of months before the plane crash, and I think may have even still been on the Billboard top 100 that week at the end of its chart run.


I really don't think Buddy Holly's notoriety should be measured by the experience of some random 11-year-old.

Bruce wrote:
The point is that the name "Buddy Holly" did not mean all that much in the 1950s until he died. He did not release a single in 1958 that made the top ten


"Rave On" hit #5 in the UK in 1958.

Bruce wrote:
and none of his solo singles even made the top 30 after "Peggy Sue" until "It Doesn't Matter Anymore" did so after his death.


Where did "Maybe Baby" chart in the USA, Bruce?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:21 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Where did "Maybe Baby" chart in the USA, Bruce?


It's by the Crickets, not by Budddy Holly, and it peaked at # 18 on the top 100.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:24 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
The cool rebel look was much more due to james dean than to elvis.


Well, Marlon Brando beat them both to it in The Wild One. But Elvis was the one that horrified an entire generation of parents. Not Marlon Brando. Not James Dean. And certainly not the Beatles.


Elvis horrified nobody. That was Little Richard you're thinking of.


If you're going to deny the nation having a collective hissy fit over Elvis Presley's gyrations in his television performances, then there is no point in bothering to continue this with you. I'm sure the nation would have been mortified by Little Richard as well, if they had gotten anywhere near the opportunity to see him that they had with Elvis. But they didn't. So Little Richard didn't. He didn't have the opportunity to shock the nation.

Elvis Presley changed everything. He changed the culture and he changed the music. The dominance of Big Band and Swing was ended by Elvis Presley. If the Beatles had ended Rock music, perhaps they could have matched the change in music wrought by Elvis, if not the change in culture. But they didn't. They just continued the dominance of Rock music. They thrived in the world that Elvis created.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:24 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Where did "Maybe Baby" chart in the USA, Bruce?


It's by the Crickets, not by Budddy Holly, and it peaked at # 18 on the top 100.


The Crickets and Buddy Holly are the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:29 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
I really don't think Buddy Holly's notoriety should be measured by the experience of some random 11-year-old.



Look, the name Buddy Holly was just not that well known in the 50s, until he died. That's a fact. The Crickets were better known than Buddy Holly, but most people had no idea that he was a member of that group.

Virtually all of the Buddy Holly imitators (Vee, Roe, Gilmer, etc...) started doing so after his death, mainly in the 1960s. Holly was just not that well known between his first couple of hits in late 1957 and his death. He became a huge star when the LP "The Buddy Holly Story" became big after his death, It was on the charts starting at the end of April in 1959 and stayed there until April of 1962.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:29 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Where did "Maybe Baby" chart in the USA, Bruce?


It's by the Crickets, not by Budddy Holly, and it peaked at # 18 on the top 100.


The Crickets and Buddy Holly are the same thing.


Not as far as the general public was concerned in America in the 1950s they weren't.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:31 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
The dominance of Big Band and Swing was ended by Elvis Presley.


What the fuck are you talking about?

Big band and swing were done long before Presley ever recorded, you fucking jackass.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:35 am 
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ClashWho wrote:

If you're going to deny the nation having a collective hissy fit over Elvis Presley's gyrations in his television performances, then there is no point in bothering to continue this with you. I'm sure the nation would have been mortified by Little Richard as well, if they had gotten anywhere near the opportunity to see him that they had with Elvis. But they didn't. So Little Richard didn't. He didn't have the opportunity to shock the nation.



Little Richard certainly shocked the nation. He was on TV plenty and in several movies in the 1950s. Every guy I know who was a teenager then (hundreds of people) says that their parents were mortified at Little Richard, but many of the parents liked elvis.

Check this passage from "The Life And Times Of Little Richard."

http://books.google.com/books?id=vSzzpb ... 22&f=false

To adults, however, Richard was a wild and bizzare, almost demented creature. They could not understand or appreciate his music.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:42 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Look, the name Buddy Holly was just not that well known in the 50s, until he died. That's a fact. The Crickets were better known than Buddy Holly, but most people had no idea that he was a member of that group.


Who cares? Everything the Crickets were is down to Buddy Holly. Ask your girlfriend if she knew who the Crickets were when Buddy Holly died. They had something like five Top Forty hits in 1958 alone. It's ridiculous that you're attempting to compare the Everly Brothers only to the stuff that was released solely under Buddy Holly's name. Compare the Everly Brothers to the Crickets and Buddy Holly. It's not like Buddy Holly's placement on any of these lists is omitting his Crickets material.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:47 am 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
The dominance of Big Band and Swing was ended by Elvis Presley.


What the fuck are you talking about?

Big band and swing were done long before Presley ever recorded, you fucking jackass.


Well, aren't you a rude son-of-a-bitch. Have I insulted you at all, anywhere in this discussion?

Elvis Presley's first television appearance was on Tommy Dorsey's show. Swing and Big Band had had its day, but it wasn't gone and would have certainly come back. The arrival of Rock 'n' Roll is what made that impossible. That's what truly took its place as the music of the masses.


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