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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Sampson wrote:
I guess if he kicked you off because he doesn't want any dissent on his board that means he can go back to dictating all of the topics and steer the discussion to whatever he wants and have the few who show up there agree with him or face the consequences.


Actually, I think he would have let me stay if it was just him, but two or three of the regulars told him to ban me, and one schmuck pulled a "I'm out of here until you ban him" grandstand, and so he caved in rather than lose one (or more) of his whopping four regular posters.

He also measures influence almost entirely based only on remakes of the artist's songs. I think you're right though in that the board seems to be a circle jerk of 3 or 4 ignorant schmucks agreeing with each other's falacies.


Do you think he has any idea that "The Train Kept A Rollin" is actually a Tiny Bradshaw original, not Johnny Burnette & The R&R Trio? I seriously doubt it, if he gives them the most deserving spot for enshrinement based totally on influence (assuming he means guitar feedback, though they weren't the first, which I pointed out to him) and who remade whose songs.



Yeah, he knows about Bradshaw, but he was very enamored with the fact that the Beatles did one of the Burnette trio songs. I didn't even realize that.

Making the case for Chubby Checker, I used his idea of remakes as being influence to show that Sam Cooke, The Miracles, Ventures and others remade Chubby records. I also mentioned Stece Alaimo and Ernie Freeman as others who remade Chubby songs, and he never heard of them.

The Beatles actually did this real good, and very close to the Trio version.



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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Sampson wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Sampson wrote:
I guess if he kicked you off because he doesn't want any dissent on his board that means he can go back to dictating all of the topics and steer the discussion to whatever he wants and have the few who show up there agree with him or face the consequences.


Actually, I think he would have let me stay if it was just him, but two or three of the regulars told him to ban me, and one schmuck pulled a "I'm out of here until you ban him" grandstand, and so he caved in rather than lose one (or more) of his whopping four regular posters.

He also measures influence almost entirely based only on remakes of the artist's songs. I think you're right though in that the board seems to be a circle jerk of 3 or 4 ignorant schmucks agreeing with each other's falacies.


Do you think he has any idea that "The Train Kept A Rollin" is actually a Tiny Bradshaw original, not Johnny Burnette & The R&R Trio? I seriously doubt it, if he gives them the most deserving spot for enshrinement based totally on influence (assuming he means guitar feedback, though they weren't the first, which I pointed out to him) and who remade whose songs.



Yeah, he knows about Bradshaw, but he was very enamored with the fact that the Beatles did one of the Burnette trio songs. I didn't even realize that.

Making the case for Chubby Checker, I used his idea of remakes as being influence to show that Sam Cooke, The Miracles, Ventures and others remade Chubby records. I also mentioned Steve Alaimo and Ernie Freeman as others who remade Chubby songs, and he never heard of them.

The Beatles actually did this real good, and very close to the Trio version.


So this guy's entire case is built upon a single song that is all but unknown to the general populace in BOTH versions? (It's not as if the Beatles take on it was a #1 hit). If he wants to have any credibility he's gotta be consistent and since the Beatles cut three Larry Williams songs and the Rolling Stones copped one, wouldn't that alone make Williams, not the R&R Trio, the most deserving based on his own faulty myopic criteria? Jeez. Chuck Willis meanwhile had HOW many of his songs done by other huge stars, not to mention his revision of CC Rider (if he's giving Burnette credit for Train, and I know he is, whether or not he admits it, then he'd have to give more credit to Willis for CC Rider)? Johnny Ace had "Pledging My Love" cut by a plethora of superstars including the biggest male AND female rock stars ever, plus the fact that the original itself was one of the handful of most important and influential songs in rock history, but apparently that pales in comparison to having a song that sold 17 copies be cut by The Beatles as one of DOZENS of covers on the BBC when they had a need to fill out the programming with different songs and were loathe to do too many originals! They also cut Chan Romero's Hippy Hippy Shake there, maybe ol' Chan is deserving too.

Look out, The Top Notes will be his new number one before long, at least their song was remade twice into actual hits by two HOF artists.

No wonder you got kicked out of there, it's like sending Albert Pujols to the plate in a Little League game, they must be ducking for cover having to deal with somebody who questions their stupefying logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:09 pm 
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Just wondering if Sampson has seen my post... :biggrin:

Negative Creep wrote:
It might be arbitrary, but does anyone else see a case for Little Richard > Chuck?

Now Berry's influence is massive, he made the guitar the focale point of rock music (you could maybe say Lowman Pauling did it first, but Berry took it to unthinkable dimensions), and his style of 'short and sweet' guitar songs basically was the foundation for rock guitar itself. Plus his trademark writing style.
But I feel Little Richard's influence prevalent in more areas.
He was, largely, the first great 'shouter' of rock & roll, at least to the degree that he influenced a whole generation with it (like Ian Gillan of Deep Purple, just for one example). I don't think it'd be unfair to say that Richard was THE pioneer of a vocal style that just gave endless possibilities for future rock singers.
He also has titanic influence on the role of the rock frontman, pre-dating Jerry Lee by a few years I think, and taking raucousness and theatrics to a whole other level than anyone in rock before him (imo). The concept of the flamboyant rock showman owes A LOT to Little Richard.

I'm not sure about commercial impact, but I'm guessing that would be a win for Chuck.

Musical Impact: I really can't say here either. They are both practically worshipped by all the big rock icons that followed in their wake.

Now cultural impact I see as another win for Richard.
To start, I guess it depends on how you're defining the term. Whether or not you mean "changing the culture", or simply "having an effect on the culture".
I'm not sure if Richard actually "changed" anything culturally, but in my opinion he DID have a biig effect on it, by breaking down barriers in popular music, being an over the top gay black man from the South, etc. I can't imagine America's reaction to him during this period...had to have been quite a sight for this who had the opportunity to see him.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
So this guy's entire case is built upon a single song that is all but unknown to the general populace in BOTH versions? (It's not as if the Beatles take on it was a #1 hit).

having a song that sold 17 copies be cut by The Beatles as one of DOZENS of covers on the BBC when they had a need to fill out the programming with different songs and were loathe to do too many originals!


The song was never even on a single. It was only on the Trio's album, which did not exactly fly off of the shelves. I've only seen 2 or 3 original copies in my life. The UK release was a ten inch LP with 12 songs. I've never seen a copy.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:09 am 
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Sampson wrote:
Speaking of Tiny Bradshaw, there's someone who could use a little more publicity on these pages too. Very interesting role in rock's formative period and he never gets mentioned at all. How many people do you think are even aware he existed?


I wouldn't say never mentioned here (there are tons of artists that are never mentioned here), but most people aren't aware of who he is. And he does need to be credited for being a hit maker, producer, bandleader, etc..., his collaborations with vocalists and impact on sax players.

His The Chronological Vols. I and II is a great listen.

"Well..." (#2 R&B Billboard) is #11 on Big Al Pavlow's 1950 chart. He had to say this: "he blew everyone away with 'Well Oh Well,' the kind of raucous, city-blues jumper that Syd Nathan's King Records seemed to specialize in."

Although "Walk That.." is probably my favorite recording by him.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:38 am 
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Sampson wrote:
That said, Allison was one of the first soul singers, very well respected within music - Sam Cooke once said he envied Allison's voice, which is pretty high praise coming from a singer like Sam. So his musical impact is high, he was one of a handful of artists who bridged that gap between secular and sacred thematically and stylistically, giving him good secondary influence, and had a few hits to give him some commercial impact as well.


Not to mention The Rolling Stones and Solomon Burke releasing versions of "...Make It..."

Definitely soul music, definitely rock 'n' roll, with the wonderful Joe Morris Orchestra backing him.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:41 am 
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Not to mention Joe Morris's contribution to Faye Adam's soul recording "Shake A Hand" and other records...


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:37 am 
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J.B. Trance wrote:
Although "Walk That.." is probably my favorite recording by him.


Good one. Mine is "Knockin' Blues," which is the flip side of "Train Kept A'Rollin'."



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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Diane posted something rare on youtube. The original version of "Ship Of Love" by the Nutmegs in 1953, when they were known as the Lyres. Incredibly raw, great display of the group's own R&B vocal group harmony sound before producers got a hold of them and made them more polished.



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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:51 pm 
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That's pretty nice. Gotta love Youtube.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Very cool!


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Just got the new Whitburn book with the Record Vendor/Record World charts. These charts were compliled based on sales and jukebox play only. No airplay was factored in. There's a ton of things that charted here that never charted on Billboard. Here's a sample:

BILL HALEY
Happy Baby #39 - 17 weeks
Two Hound Dogs #47
Rock The Joint #53 - 12 weeks (Essex version 1955)
Blue Comet Blues #71
Don't Knock The Rock #49
Choo Choo Ch-Boogie #49
Rock The Joint (Decca) #78 (1957)
How Many #79
Mary, Mary Lou (#54)
It's A Sin (#71)
Whoa Mabel #94

GENE VINCENT
Woman Love #47
Gonna Back Up Baby #56
Bluejean Bop #59
I Got It #78
Walkin' Home From School #52


Hank Ballard & Midnighters - Sugaree #77
Jesse Belvin - Pledging My Love #59
Chuck Berry - Thirty Days #72
Chuck Berry - Bye Bye Johnny #91
Bobby Bland - Lead Me On #99
Bobby Bland - Jelly, Jelly, Jelly #90
Ruth Brown - When I Get You Baby #66
Cadillacs - Zoom #76
Johnny Cash - There You Go #55
Cashmeres - Satisfied part 2 #76
Vince Castro - Bong Bong (I Love You Madly) #81
Cleftones - Can't We Be Sweethearts #73
Dell-Vikings - I'm Spinning #84 (Dot)
Dell-Vikings - You Cheated #78 (Mercury)

Bo Diddley - Bo Diddley #29 (10 weeks) - This was clearly a pop hit,
but Billboard only had a top 30 at that time and it never charted
there. Not enough pop airplay.

FATS DOMINO
Poor Me #44
Don't Blame It On Me #82
Honey Chile #47
I'm In The Mood For Love #64
Here Come Fats EP #53 (lead track is "The Rooster Song")
Don't You Know I Love You #85
I Just Cry #92
My Heart Is Bleeding #100

Jack Dupree & Mr. Bear - Walking The Blues #76

Everly Brothers
Maybe Tomorrow #83
Should We Tell Him #55
Oh, What A Feeling #82
Since You Broke My Heart #85

Five Keys
Close Your Eyes #80
Gee Whittakers #32
With All My Love #84

Alan Freed - Right Now, Right Now #85 (May 1956)

Here's an AMAZING one:

Cornell Gunter & the Flairs - In Self Defense #25 (Top 25 pop)

and the flip side
She Loves To Rock #50

CARL PERKINS
All Mama's Children #21
Jive After Five #59

And "Boppin' The Blues" got to #19 (only #70 in Billboard)


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:26 pm 
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ROY HAMILTON
Ebb Tide #42
Hurt #71
I Believe #82
Forgive This Fool #35
You Wanted To Change Me #55
Walk Along With Kings #52
Somewhere Along The Way #89

The book starts in late 1954, otherwise I'm sure "You'll Never Walk Alone" would be here also.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:42 pm 
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I got it too, all 416 pages of it. The book features every song that charted on Music Vendor's and Record World's pop singles charts from October 4, 1954 through April 10, 1982.

Top 10 Artists:
1. Elvis Presley
2. The Beatles
3. Pat Boone
4. Connie Francis
5. James Brown
6. Frank Sinatra
7. Stevie Wonder
8. Nat "King" Cole
9. The Supremes
10. Perry Como

Most Chart Hits:
1. Elvis Presley
2. James Brown
3. Frank Sinatra

Most Top 40 Hits:
1. Elvis Presley
2. The Beatles
3. James Brown

Most Top 10 Hits:
1. Elvis Presley
2. The Beatles
3. Stevie Wonder

Most #1 Hits:
1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. The Supremes

Most Weeks At The #1 Position:
1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. The Supremes

Indispensable. It's as prized as my Pop Memories and Big Al Pavlow's R&B book.

I wish Billboard would compile their "Hits of the World". I had to compile mine manually over the stretch of decades, but it was worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:47 pm 
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The Top 10 of the Hot 100 Hits 1954-1982:

1. You Light Up My Life - Debby Boone
2. Physical - Olivia Newton-John
3. Endless Love - Diana Ross & Lionel Richie
4. I Want To Hold Your Hands - The Beatles
5. Cherry Pink And Apple Blossom White - Perez Prado
6. Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley
7. Shadow Dancing - Andy Gibb
8. The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant
9. Night Fever - Bee Gees
10. Le Freak - Chic

Pretty interesting that there were four instances where there were ties at #1, and the Beatles were in two of them with "Let It Be" and "Come Together."

And it's neat that they included sample pages from Music Vendor and Record World at the end of the book.


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