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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
What the fuck are you talking about?

Big band and swing were done long before Presley ever recorded, you fucking jackass.


All right, whatever was the dominant form of music before Elvis Presley hit, whether it was big band, swing, bebop, jazz, crooners, pop standards, jump blues, whatever. The point stands.


How do you think that you are qualified to argue this point with me when you have no idea what was happening in music before Elvis hit?


Is that a denial?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Here's the top ten records in NYC just before "Heartbreak Hotel" entered the charts.

WMGM Top 10 Survey

For the Week of February 26, 1956


TW LW
1 ?? ROCK AND ROLL WALTZ - Kay Starr (RCA Victor)
2 ?? LISBON ANTIGUA - Nelson Riddle & His Orchestra (Capitol)
3 ?? NO, NOT MUCH - The Four Lads (Columbia)
4 ?? THE POOR PEOPLE OF PARIS - Les Baxter & His Orchestra (Capitol)
5 ?? SEE YOU LATER, ALLIGATOR - Bill Haley & His Comets (Decca)
6 ?? MORITAT (A Theme From “The Three Penny Opera”) - The Dick Hyman
Trio (M-G-M)
7 ?? THE GREAT PRETENDER - The Platters (Mercury)
8 ?? WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE - The Teenagers featuring Frankie
Lymon (Gee)
9 ?? BAND OF GOLD - Don Cherry (Columbia)
10 ?? MEMORIES ARE MADE OF THIS - Dean Martin (Capitol)


As you can see there are already three rock and roll songs (5, 7 & 8) among the 10 biggest records BEFORE anybody in NYC ever heard of Elvis.

Rock and roll was huge among teenagers in NYC and many other areas already before they ever heard of Elvis.

Once Freed got there in the fall of 1954 every teenager in the tri-state area was into rock and roll. Elvis was a late arriaval. Pop stars like Kay Starr were already exploiting rock and roll's popularity before Elvis ever made the pop charts.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Rock and roll did not dominate the charts in Presley's day the way it did after the Beatles hit.


Elvis was bucking the current trend. He was at the vanguard. That's much more difficult to do than what the Beatles did. All they had to do was slightly revive an already massively popular form of music. Cripes, how can you not see the difference?

Bruce wrote:
There were still loads of traditional pop and adult type records that were big on the charts in the 50s.


And not in the ensuing decades? Barbara Streisand has had 22 Top Ten Albums and 7 #1 albums from 1963 to 2009.

Bruce wrote:
April 7, 1958, the top ten was not exactly loaded with rock and roll, here's the WMGM survey from that week.

TW LW WOC
1 1 TEQUILA - The Champs (Challenge) 9
2 5 TWILIGHT TIME - The Platters (Mercury) 3
3 3 FOR YOUR LOVE - Ed Townsend (Capitol) 4
4 2 LOLLIPOP - The Chordettes (Cadence) 7
5 11 HE’S GOT THE WHOLE WORLD (In His Hands) - Laurie London
(Capitol) 3
6 21 WITCH DOCTOR - David Seville (Liberty) 2
7 4 WHO’S SORRY NOW - Connie Francis (M-G-M) 10
8 7 BILLY - Kathy Linden (Felsted) 6
9 15 BOOK OF LOVE - The Monotones (Argo) 3
10 6 LAZY MARY (Luna Mezzo Mare) - Lou Monte (RCA Victor) 9

And here's one from 1959:

TW LW WOC
1 1 MACK THE KNIFE - Bobby Darin (Atco) 12
2 2 DECK OF CARDS - Wink Martindale (Dot) 9
3 3 MR. BLUE - The Fleetwoods (Dolton) 8
4 5 DON’T YOU KNOW - Della Reese (RCA Victor) 10
5 6 PRIMROSE LANE - Jerry Wallace with The Jewels (Challenge) 8
6 7 (Seven Little Girls) SITTING IN THE BACK SEAT - Paul Evans
(Guaranteed) 9
7 4 PUT YOUR HEAD ON MY SHOULDER - Paul Anka (ABC-Paramount) 10
8 11 MARINA - Willy Alberti (London) 3
9 8 (If You Cry) TRUE LOVE, TRUE LOVE - The Drifters (Atlantic) 5
10 15 BELIEVE ME - The Royal Teens (Capitol) 6

Where's all the amazing rock and roll that Presley supposedly ushered in as the dominant music form of the day?


I don't like this idea that the chart ends at #10, but I looked at your lists of the 120 greatest songs of all pop genres for those years and both are absolutely jam-packed with Rock 'n' Roll, so who exactly do you think you're kidding?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Here's the top ten records in NYC just before "Heartbreak Hotel" entered the charts.

WMGM Top 10 Survey

For the Week of February 26, 1956


TW LW
1 ?? ROCK AND ROLL WALTZ - Kay Starr (RCA Victor)
2 ?? LISBON ANTIGUA - Nelson Riddle & His Orchestra (Capitol)
3 ?? NO, NOT MUCH - The Four Lads (Columbia)
4 ?? THE POOR PEOPLE OF PARIS - Les Baxter & His Orchestra (Capitol)
5 ?? SEE YOU LATER, ALLIGATOR - Bill Haley & His Comets (Decca)
6 ?? MORITAT (A Theme From “The Three Penny Opera”) - The Dick Hyman
Trio (M-G-M)
7 ?? THE GREAT PRETENDER - The Platters (Mercury)
8 ?? WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE - The Teenagers featuring Frankie
Lymon (Gee)
9 ?? BAND OF GOLD - Don Cherry (Columbia)
10 ?? MEMORIES ARE MADE OF THIS - Dean Martin (Capitol)


As you can see there are already three rock and roll songs (5, 7 & 8) among the 10 biggest records BEFORE anybody in NYC ever heard of Elvis.

Rock and roll was huge among teenagers in NYC and many other areas already before they ever heard of Elvis.

Once Freed got there in the fall of 1954 every teenager in the tri-state area was into rock and roll. Elvis was a late arriaval. Pop stars like Kay Starr were already exploiting rock and roll's popularity before Elvis ever made the pop charts.


I find it extremely fishy that you're narrowing your focus to only NYC to make this point. Extremely fishy, indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:58 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Here's the top ten records in NYC just before "Heartbreak Hotel" entered the charts.

WMGM Top 10 Survey

For the Week of February 26, 1956


TW LW
1 ?? ROCK AND ROLL WALTZ - Kay Starr (RCA Victor)
2 ?? LISBON ANTIGUA - Nelson Riddle & His Orchestra (Capitol)
3 ?? NO, NOT MUCH - The Four Lads (Columbia)
4 ?? THE POOR PEOPLE OF PARIS - Les Baxter & His Orchestra (Capitol)
5 ?? SEE YOU LATER, ALLIGATOR - Bill Haley & His Comets (Decca)
6 ?? MORITAT (A Theme From “The Three Penny Opera”) - The Dick Hyman
Trio (M-G-M)
7 ?? THE GREAT PRETENDER - The Platters (Mercury)
8 ?? WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE - The Teenagers featuring Frankie
Lymon (Gee)
9 ?? BAND OF GOLD - Don Cherry (Columbia)
10 ?? MEMORIES ARE MADE OF THIS - Dean Martin (Capitol)


As you can see there are already three rock and roll songs (5, 7 & 8) among the 10 biggest records BEFORE anybody in NYC ever heard of Elvis.

Rock and roll was huge among teenagers in NYC and many other areas already before they ever heard of Elvis.

Once Freed got there in the fall of 1954 every teenager in the tri-state area was into rock and roll. Elvis was a late arriaval. Pop stars like Kay Starr were already exploiting rock and roll's popularity before Elvis ever made the pop charts.


I find it extremely fishy that you're narrowing your focus to only NYC to make this point. Extremely fishy, indeed.


Nothing fishy about it, it's just that I have quick access to those NYC station surveys. You'll find the same story in LA, Chicago, Memphis, Boston, Philly, etc...

The facts are that rock and roll was huge already before Elvis ever signed with RCA.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Here's a story from the Jan 22 1955 issue of Billboard about Freed's rock and roll show doing $24,000 in receipts. This is over a year before Elvis ever broke out on the national charts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3h0EAA ... ig&f=false


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Rock and roll did not dominate the charts in Presley's day the way it did after the Beatles hit.


Elvis was bucking the current trend. He was at the vanguard. That's much more difficult to do than what the Beatles did. All they had to do was slightly revive an already massively popular form of music. Cripes, how can you not see the difference?

Bruce wrote:
There were still loads of traditional pop and adult type records that were big on the charts in the 50s.


And not in the ensuing decades? Barbara Streisand has had 22 Top Ten Albums and 7 #1 albums from 1963 to 2009.

Bruce wrote:
April 7, 1958, the top ten was not exactly loaded with rock and roll, here's the WMGM survey from that week.

TW LW WOC
1 1 TEQUILA - The Champs (Challenge) 9
2 5 TWILIGHT TIME - The Platters (Mercury) 3
3 3 FOR YOUR LOVE - Ed Townsend (Capitol) 4
4 2 LOLLIPOP - The Chordettes (Cadence) 7
5 11 HE’S GOT THE WHOLE WORLD (In His Hands) - Laurie London
(Capitol) 3
6 21 WITCH DOCTOR - David Seville (Liberty) 2
7 4 WHO’S SORRY NOW - Connie Francis (M-G-M) 10
8 7 BILLY - Kathy Linden (Felsted) 6
9 15 BOOK OF LOVE - The Monotones (Argo) 3
10 6 LAZY MARY (Luna Mezzo Mare) - Lou Monte (RCA Victor) 9

And here's one from 1959:

TW LW WOC
1 1 MACK THE KNIFE - Bobby Darin (Atco) 12
2 2 DECK OF CARDS - Wink Martindale (Dot) 9
3 3 MR. BLUE - The Fleetwoods (Dolton) 8
4 5 DON’T YOU KNOW - Della Reese (RCA Victor) 10
5 6 PRIMROSE LANE - Jerry Wallace with The Jewels (Challenge) 8
6 7 (Seven Little Girls) SITTING IN THE BACK SEAT - Paul Evans
(Guaranteed) 9
7 4 PUT YOUR HEAD ON MY SHOULDER - Paul Anka (ABC-Paramount) 10
8 11 MARINA - Willy Alberti (London) 3
9 8 (If You Cry) TRUE LOVE, TRUE LOVE - The Drifters (Atlantic) 5
10 15 BELIEVE ME - The Royal Teens (Capitol) 6

Where's all the amazing rock and roll that Presley supposedly ushered in as the dominant music form of the day?


I don't like this idea that the chart ends at #10, but I looked at your lists of the 120 greatest songs of all pop genres for those years and both are absolutely jam-packed with Rock 'n' Roll, so who exactly do you think you're kidding?


My lists are purposely slanted toward rock and roll with some "related genres" included. In reality there were tons of non rock and roll hits in those years.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Brian wrote:
I suspect that you're right that the Everly Brothers beat Holly comfortably in musical impact.


Within the decade of the fifties, perhaps, but no way in terms of all-time.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Nothing fishy about it, it's just that I have quick access to those NYC station surveys. You'll find the same story in LA, Chicago, Memphis, Boston, Philly, etc...

The facts are that rock and roll was huge already before Elvis ever signed with RCA.


Bruce, if you had to pick one artist most responsible for Rock 'n' Roll becoming the dominant form of popular music, who would that artist be?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:18 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:

You may be right that there's nothing specific that they did first, but I think you tie influence too closely to innovation. As I said elsewhere, there's very little that's actually completely unprecedented, and I think if we applied that idea strictly the Most Influential list would be filled with artists whom we've never heard of or don't know much about, simply because they did something specific first that one of the greats turned into an important and influential idea.


That's why I have secondary influence, which is not for innovation, but for the widespread expansion of something that was already in existance. The Beatles do get credit for that, but they are not alone in that regard, as you point out. So since album sales in rock were on the increase already, as was album experimentation in terms of artists being much more cognizant of the material they were including on albums and trying to ensure it was of a similar nature and a high level across the board, this was already the growing trend when they came along. They added to that with their releases, but the perception of them being the catalyst in this does not meet reality enough to make it defensible to grant them more credit than they deserve.


And I'm saying that the difference between "primary influence" and "secondary influence" is an artificial one. There are very, very few cases of someone doing something completely original and having an influence. I mean, maybe something like the Chipmunks where no one had used voices with altered speed before. But the vast majority of music doesn't work that way. Artists don't make a great impact by coming up with a purely new idea; they make a great impact by doing something in their own way and influencing the way people perceive the possibilities and the boundaries of that thing.

If the Beatles only get "secondary influence" credit because other people were experimenting with the album form before they did, then what is Elvis getting "primary influence" credit for? He certainly wasn't the first rock artist. His role in the creation of rockabilly was indubitably huge, but by your standards, since other people had mixed country sounds with rock/R&B before that, well, then, what he did was only "secondary influence", right? Mind you, I think that's ridiculous, but it's no more ridiculous than what you're doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Here's a story from the Jan 22 1955 issue of Billboard about Freed's rock and roll show doing $24,000 in receipts. This is over a year before Elvis ever broke out on the national charts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3h0EAA ... ig&f=false


We know Rock 'n' Roll (Rhythm and Blues) was already huge in the black community, Bruce. Elvis is the artist most responsible for it breaking through to all communities.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
My lists are purposely slanted toward rock and roll with some "related genres" included. In reality there were tons of non rock and roll hits in those years.


Perhaps you ought to mention on those lists that you've taken a deliberately distorted view in compiling them.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:37 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Nothing fishy about it, it's just that I have quick access to those NYC station surveys. You'll find the same story in LA, Chicago, Memphis, Boston, Philly, etc...

The facts are that rock and roll was huge already before Elvis ever signed with RCA.


Bruce, if you had to pick one artist most responsible for Rock 'n' Roll becoming the dominant form of popular music, who would that artist be?


The Beatles.

Rock and roll did not become the dominant form of popular music until the mid-60s. Before that you had the top records of each year looking something like this.

1957 - Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone
1958 - Nel Blu Di Pinto Di Blu - Domenico Modugno
1959 - Mack The Knife - Bobby Darin / The Battle Of New Orleans - Johnny Horton
1960 - The Theme From A Summer Place - Percy Faith

Most of the biggest albums of the fifties and early 60s were not rock and roll.

By the late 60s almost every big single and every big album were rock and roll.

Before that rock and roll was big, but it was not the dominat form of popular music yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:38 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Here's a story from the Jan 22 1955 issue of Billboard about Freed's rock and roll show doing $24,000 in receipts. This is over a year before Elvis ever broke out on the national charts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3h0EAA ... ig&f=false


We know Rock 'n' Roll (Rhythm and Blues) was already huge in the black community, Bruce. Elvis is the artist most responsible for it breaking through to all communities.


No, it was huge with white teenagers in 1955 and early in 1956 before presley broke out.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists of the 1950's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:41 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
My lists are purposely slanted toward rock and roll with some "related genres" included. In reality there were tons of non rock and roll hits in those years.


Perhaps you ought to mention on those lists that you've taken a deliberately distorted view in compiling them.


The criteria says...

"Songs listed are from rock and roll and related genres."

That's good enough as far as I'm concerned. If you just want the biggest hits of each year you can by Joel Whitburn's books.


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