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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:47 pm 
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gminer wrote:
Sampson,

.. all great material and very interesting to read, the only artist I generally question on a list dedicated to the 60`s is the high placement of the Velvet Underground as they did not exist in the 60`s based on the criteria (Equal parts Commercial Impact, Influence, Musical Impact and Cultural Impact) until the 70`s and generally only after some interest in Lou Reed`s solo material had developed. The VU would not have moved more than 10,000 units of all their material during the entire decade of the 60`s, there is no mention of them in any music and trade publication outside of the general New York area in the 60`s and their music was not played or distributed in any significant way beyond that geographical area and I am not sure if there is any material of any artist in the 60`s stating any influence to the VU (years after yes, but not quoted in the 60`s as far as I have ever seen)....


True, if this list was made on 1/1/70 the Velvet Underground would not have made it at all.

There seems to be a common misperception of how the influence criteria is applied. Influence means whatever work done IN the 60's that was later influential. It does not have to be influential on other work within the same decade, so for VU that influence became noticeable years later, decades later even, and that's the reason why they get their spot - massive influence. Ironically, more people say they're too low here rather than too high, but it's good that you were looking at it from a criteria-based standpoint. Hope that clears it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
gminer wrote:
Sampson,

.. all great material and very interesting to read, the only artist I generally question on a list dedicated to the 60`s is the high placement of the Velvet Underground as they did not exist in the 60`s based on the criteria (Equal parts Commercial Impact, Influence, Musical Impact and Cultural Impact) until the 70`s and generally only after some interest in Lou Reed`s solo material had developed. The VU would not have moved more than 10,000 units of all their material during the entire decade of the 60`s, there is no mention of them in any music and trade publication outside of the general New York area in the 60`s and their music was not played or distributed in any significant way beyond that geographical area and I am not sure if there is any material of any artist in the 60`s stating any influence to the VU (years after yes, but not quoted in the 60`s as far as I have ever seen)....


True, if this list was made on 1/1/70 the Velvet Underground would not have made it at all.

There seems to be a common misperception of how the influence criteria is applied. Influence means whatever work done IN the 60's that was later influential. It does not have to be influential on other work within the same decade, so for VU that influence became noticeable years later, decades later even, and that's the reason why they get their spot - massive influence. Ironically, more people say they're too low here rather than too high, but it's good that you were looking at it from a criteria-based standpoint. Hope that clears it up.


... don`t disagree with your comments at all ... other than to point out in the 60`s and you knew this as well the VU did not really exist ... and there were other artists doing exactly what they were doing earlier and in many cases quite a bit better ... and those artists were known at the time but now are forgotten ..... for example The Monks were very well known in Europe and the UK .... and it is said by some that when Hendrix some them perform live he became inspired by their use of feedback/noise rock etc ..... Take care

... you might enjoy these early clips of the Monks ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5iI0__9S1c

... and there is this feedback laced noise generated proto punk lyric shouted and screamed vocals recorded in 1964 from the Monks called I Hate You .. and was released on their 1966 album Black Monk Time ... and they even had a heavily distorted banjo player as well back in those days ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eOuPeAfOeE

... and the tune Shut Up from the same album...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnSrw8rE ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Echoes wrote:
gminer wrote:
Echoes wrote:
Musicfan just say it.

IMO Satisfaction is the song that divides Rock N Roll from Rock. Paint it Black is a song that created a whole movement (accordingly to a friend of mine how is “dark”, he claims that the Dark movement started with that song).

I can’t imagine bands like The Doors without The Rolling Stones.

Just listen to this song and tell me which band played like that before The Rolling Stones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYYTLJ8YHi4

Fuck, there are too many examples……………….


Hello Echoes hope all is well with you ....

... from the UK you might find this fellow interesting as the Stones were very well aware of Cyril Davies and the All Stars ... the Stones opened for him in 1962 and 63 etc ... and you might note Charlie Watts played drums at one time for Davies and Jack Bruce played bass ...Take care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QynodK3u0O8

... and just something to be different Ronnie Wood`s brother Art with Jon Lord (in later yrs with Deep Purple) on keyboards and also a little guitar feedback ... The Artwoods ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl1QKd0e ... re=related


Absolutely mind blowing!!!

I have discovered tons of great music thanks to you.


...you are welcome my friend and if you are interested in some fantastic drumming from 1961 .... here is the drum teacher for Charlie Watts and Keith Moon ... Carlo Little with Screaming Lord Sutch .... listen to this one the whole way through, there are not many singles in those days with a drum solo ..... some call Carlo Little the first power drummer ... Take care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLIcC6wzyns


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
The Who really are #15 in the last revision that I saw. It's right here in this forum in the recently locked 1960's thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=88&start=0

Apparently it's from 3-25-2005.


Yeah, that's an old version, the ones in my computer files don't even go back that far, but I had stayed off the forums so I guess that's why such an old version was included.

The jumps that are noticable over the Who are really The Tempts and Miracles, who I had clearly not given enough credit for originally.


Well, I certainly think that the Temptations and the Smokey Robinson Miracles are worthy candidates for placing above The Who for the sixties.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
But going by this criteria the Supremes are indeed the greater artist than The Rolling Stones in the 1960's.


Additionally, for historical perspective, the Supremes really were the Beatles top competition for chart supremacy in the sixties. Not the Rolling Stones.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Musicfan67 wrote:
I think "Paint it Black" though influenced by George Harrison use was the first major pop single to go number one with the sitar featured.


The sitar is little more than a novelty instrument in western popular music. There was a brief sitar craze in the mid-sixties and then it promptly faded back into obscurity. Its lasting impact is minimal.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:23 pm 
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gminer wrote:
...you are welcome my friend and if you are interested in some fantastic drumming from 1961 .... here is the drum teacher for Charlie Watts and Keith Moon ... Carlo Little with Screaming Lord Sutch ....


Two such diametrically opposed drummers in approach and style.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Echoes wrote:
IMO Satisfaction is the song that divides Rock N Roll from Rock.


That's a good contender. Others are "You Really Got Me" and "My Generation". Even the Kingsmen's "Louie Louie".

Echoes wrote:
Paint it Black is a song that created a whole movement (accordingly to a friend of mine how is “dark”, he claims that the Dark movement started with that song).


How about Robert Johnson's "Cross Road Blues" or "Hellhound on my Trail"? Pretty dark stuff, methinks. Not to mention the multitudes of "Stagger Lee" renditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:53 pm 
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Musicfan67 wrote:
I have to be consistent with this theme. One of the many reasons why I have the Beatles over Elvis are these reasons. The Rolling Stones wrote and played their music. They had the better album run. Sorry but for me personally these factors are important but not solely who is the greater artist.


Yes, you keep beating the same drum. You continually talk about "the better album run," but when someone mentions that perhaps the other artist had a better singles run, you ignore it. You are obviously biased towards album artists, despite rock 'n' roll being a singles-driven art form for much of its existance. You also keep bringing up the idea of artists writing and playing their own music as if it should matter on these greatness lists. It doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Musicfan67 wrote:
I have nothing against the Four Seasons once the Beatles hit they certainly weren't a prime musical force. From a musicial point of view the Four Seasons were made reduntant by the Beatles and the British Invasion.


How did the Beatles make them redundant? Do you know what that word means?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:15 pm 
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... the Top 50 charting album artists in the UK in the 60`s... Take care

1 The Beatles
2 Elvis Presley
3 Cliff Richard
4 Frank Sinatra
5 The Beach Boys
6 The George Mitchell Minstrels
7 Bob Dylan
8 The Rolling Stones
9 Jim Reeves
10 Buddy Holly
11 The Shadows
12 Tom Jones
13 The Seekers
14 Herb Alpert
15 Otis Redding
16 The Four Tops
17 The Supremes
18 Mr Acker Bilk
19 Simon And Garfunkel
20 Engelbert Humperdinck
21 Cream
22 Val Doonican
23 Roy Orbison
24 The Monkees
25 The Hollies
26 Andy Williams
27 The Kinks
28 The Bachelors
29 The Searchers
30 Chris Barber
31 Frank Ifield
32 The Walker Brothers
33 Joan Baez
34 Jimi Hendrix
35 John Mayall
36 Ray Conniff
37 The Animals
38 Duane Eddy
39 Bert Kaempfert
40 Dusty Springfield
41 The Temptations
42 The Small Faces
43 Peter Sellers
44 Mantovani
45 The Dubliners
46 Bobby Vee
47 The Moody Blues
48 Georgie Fame
49 Kenny Ball
50 Fleetwood Mac

... and the Top 50 singles artists from the UK in the 60`s

1 Cliff Richard
2 Elvis Presley
3 The Beatles
4 The Shadows
5 Roy Orbison
6 Jim Reeves
7 Billy Fury
8 Adam Faith
9 The Hollies
10 The Everly Brothers
11 The Rolling Stones
12 Tom Jones
13 Engelbert Humperdinck
14 The Tremeloes
15 The Beach Boys
16 Manfred Mann
17 Brenda Lee
18 The Supremes
19 Frank Ifield
20 The Bachelors
21 Shirley Bassey
22 Herman's Hermits
23 Ken Dodd
24 Frank Sinatra
25 Gene Pitney
26 The Kinks
27 Cilla Black
28 Dusty Springfield
29 Sandie Shaw
30 Petula Clark
31 Del Shannon
32 Mr Acker Bilk
33 Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick And Tich
34 Duane Eddy
35 The Dave Clark Five
36 The Searchers
37 The Seekers
38 The Four Tops
39 Gerry and The Pacemakers
40 The Who
41 Helen Shapiro
42 Buddy Holly
43 Bobby Vee
44 The Animals
45 The Small Faces
46 Connie Francis
47 Kenny Ball
48 Val Doonican
49 The Bee Gees
50 Bobby Darin

...the Top 50 Album artists in the US for the 60`s

1 Frank Sinatra
2 Johnny Mathis
3 Herb Alpert
4 The Kingston Trio
5 The Beatles
6 Mitch Miller
7 Andy Williams
8 Elvis Presley
9 Ray Charles
10 Barbra Streisand
11 Bill Cosby
12 Peter, Paul And Mary
13 Henry Mancini
14 The Supremes
15 The Beach Boys
16 Joan Baez
17 The Temptations
18 The Rolling Stones
19 Ray Conniff
20 Mantovani
21 The Ventures
22 Nancy Wilson
23 Dean Martin
24 Nat "King" Cole
25 Lawrence Welk
26 Al Hirt
27 The Lettermen
28 Billy Vaughn
29 Chubby Checker
30 Simon And Garfunkel
31 Tony Bennett
32 Harry Belafonte
33 Glen Campbell
34 Bob Dylan
35 The Monkees
36 Al Martino
37 Jimmy Smith
38 The Four Seasons
39 Roger Williams
40 The Mamas & The Papas
41 Rusty Warren
42 James Brown
43 Connie Francis
44 Robert Goulet
45 Dionne Warwick
46 Aretha Franklin
47 Herman's Hermits
48 Trini Lopez
49 Johnny Cash
50 The New Christy Minstrels

... the Top 50 Singles artists for the US in the 60`s

1 The Beatles
2 Elvis Presley
3 Brenda Lee
4 The Supremes
5 The Beach Boys
6 Ray Charles
7 Connie Francis
8 Marvin Gaye
9 The Four Seasons
10 Chubby Checker
11 Bobby Vinton
12 The Temptations
13 James Brown
14 Roy Orbison
15 The Miracles
16 The Rolling Stones
17 Brook Benton
18 Sam Cooke
19 Dionne Warwick
20 Ricky Nelson
21 Jackie Wilson
22 Bobby Rydell
23 Herman's Hermits
24 Aretha Franklin
25 Bobby Darin
26 Bobby Vee
27 The Dave Clark Five
28 Dion
29 Stevie Wonder
30 The Drifters
31 Gene Pitney
32 Jerry Butler
33 The Everly Brothers
34 Tommy James
35 The Shirelles
36 The Impressions
37 The Four Tops
38 Johnny Tillotson
39 The Rascals
40 Paul Anka
41 Martha and the Vandellas
42 Johnny Rivers
43 Andy Williams
44 Petula Clark
45 The Marvelettes
46 The Monkees
47 Fats Domino
48 Herb Alpert
49 Frank Sinatra
50 Neil Sedaka

... and the combined totals for all charts around the world singles and albums for the 60`s ...

1: The Beatles
2: Elvis Presley
3: The Rolling Stones
4: Frank Sinatra
5: The Beach Boys
6: Bob Dylan
7: Cliff Richard
8: John Coltrane
9: Ray Charles
10: The Shadows
11: Roy Orbison
12: The Kinks
13: Jim Reeves
14: Otis Redding
15: Herb Alpert
16: Connie Francis
17: The Supremes
18: The Everly Brothers
19: Andy Williams
20: The Monkees
21: Simon & Garfunkel
22: James Brown
23: Henry Mancini
24: Johnny Cash
25: The Hollies
26: Chubby Checker
27: Tom Jones
28: Peter, Paul & Mary
29: The Byrds
30: Jimi Hendrix
31: Miles Davis
32: Aretha Franklin
33: The Searchers
34: The Who
35: The Four Seasons
36: Brenda Lee
37: The Ventures
38: Charles Mingus
39: Manfred Mann
40: The Temptations
41: The Animals
42: Cream
43: Duane Eddy
44: The Doors
45: Joan Baez
46: Barbra Streisand
47: Donovan
48: Herman's Hermits
49: Nat King Cole
50: Bobby Vee


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:50 pm 
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Can someone please put this "There were a bunch of artists in the 60s who were exactly the same as the Velvet Underground and better than the Velvet Underground but which the critical establishment ignored in favor of the Velvet Underground for no reason at all and therefore the Velvet Underground are not as great as everyone says they are" litany to rest for once and for all? To say that a band like The Monks did the exact same thing The Velvet Underground did earlier and better only speaks to the total and complete ignorance of the speaker as to The Velvet Underground's unique appeal. It's not just about noisy guitars, folks.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:50 pm 
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gminer wrote:

...you are welcome my friend and if you are interested in some fantastic drumming from 1961 .... here is the drum teacher for Charlie Watts and Keith Moon ... Carlo Little with Screaming Lord Sutch .... listen to this one the whole way through, there are not many singles in those days with a drum solo ..... some call Carlo Little the first power drummer ... Take care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLIcC6wzyns


The drummer is great, the guitarist is great, and the sax solo is also great.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Dreww wrote:
Can someone please put this "There were a bunch of artists in the 60s who were exactly the same as the Velvet Underground and better than the Velvet Underground but which the critical establishment ignored in favor of the Velvet Underground for no reason at all and therefore the Velvet Underground are not as great as everyone says they are" litany to rest for once and for all? To say that a band like The Monks did the exact same thing The Velvet Underground did earlier and better only speaks to the total and complete ignorance of the speaker as to The Velvet Underground's unique appeal. It's not just about noisy guitars, folks.


I bloody love litanies.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Dreww wrote:
Can someone please put this "There were a bunch of artists in the 60s who were exactly the same as the Velvet Underground and better than the Velvet Underground but which the critical establishment ignored in favor of the Velvet Underground for no reason at all and therefore the Velvet Underground are not as great as everyone says they are" litany to rest for once and for all? To say that a band like The Monks did the exact same thing The Velvet Underground did earlier and better only speaks to the total and complete ignorance of the speaker as to The Velvet Underground's unique appeal. It's not just about noisy guitars, folks.


... it speaks more to the complete ignorance of your response ... Take care


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